From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 01:33:23 1992 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1992 8:48:57 GMT From: B_DUKE@DARWIN.NTU.EDU.AU (Brian Duke) Subject: Re: Computer languages. To: CHEMISTRY@ccl.net Status: RO IMHO there is some confusion here. I believe four things:- 1. Learning a computer language is not only a good idea but essential. 2. Learning something about other people's culture is not only a good idea but essential. 3. Learning to at least read a bit of another language is not only a good idea but essential. It would be better to be able to speak another language. 4. I see no reason why any of these things should be a compulsary part of a Ph D and in this country they are not. A Ph D is not the only thing in life or the only education scientists get. I expect people to learn these things without them being made compulsory. I might add that the time I spent, 30+ years ago, learning so-called "scientific german" was a complete waste of time. I never use it. On the other hand I can read papers in French after learning this in High School and spending short periods of time in France, french speaking West African countries, and, for a very brief time indeed, Montreal. So, rather than the silly choice between Fortran and French, I suggest dropping any language requirement. Certainly thinking Fortran is a language is insane - it is a computer coding device. Brian J. Duke School of Chemistry and Earth Sciences, Northern Territory University GPO Box 40146, Casuarina, NT 0811, Australia. Phone 089-466702 FAX 089-410460 E-mail B_DUKE@DARWIN.NTU.EDU.AU From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 03:18:00 1992 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1992 00:28:55 -0400 From: petonak@bogosity.chem.psu.edu (Paul Petonak) Status: RO While this foreign language discussion may be very interesting and worthwhile, I am sure many of us don't want to wade through the excess mail. Look for a newsgroup on USENET. Paul Petonak PSU Chemistry & Molecular Biology From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 05:14:56 1992 From: dov@menora.weizmann.ac.il (Dov Grobgeld) Subject: Re: Languages To: chemistry@ccl.net (Computational Chemistry List) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 92 10:13:04 WETDST Status: RO (Truncated Swedish. Where are all the dots on this keyboard? :-) Att vilja byta ut svenska, eller nagot annat manskligt sprak, mot Cobol, IDL, eller C++, ar helknappt, knasigt, och rent ut av jattedumt! (Transliterated Hebrew. I'm still waiting for Unicode... ) Hara'ayon lehachlif ivrit, u eize safah enoshit aheret, mul Forth, Perl, u Basic, hu meshugah legamrei! I indeed would have had some difficulties in my present life, had I not complemented my vernacular Swedish with knowledge of English and Hebrew. Not to mention the joy that my little knowledge of French and German brings me occasionally. Shalom, Ciao, Asta la vista, Hejdaa, Sa'alam, Au revoir, Auf Wiedersehen. -- ___ ___ / o \ o \ Dov Grobgeld ( o o ) o | The Weizmann Institute of Science, Israel \ o /o o / "Where the tree of wisdom carries oranges" | | | | _| |_ _| |_ From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 05:22:25 1992 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 92 17:05:59 +1000 From: Tim Astley To: CHEMISTRY@ccl.net Subject: Overlap Integrals, How do you calc them? Status: RO My work is based on studying the ligand fields of first row transition metal complexes. I hope to quantify the "bonding" using the Angular Overlap Model which has proven very useful in the past for asessing the strength of Metal to ligand interactions. The problem however is, in the past most compounds studied using the AOM were monodentate. I am using tridentate ligands and these have obvious steric constraints which prevents the bonding being directed exactly along the M-L bond axis. My compounds are tripodal in nature with the coordinating part being either pyrazoles or pyridines. For a monodentate pyrazole the bonding is assumed to be maximum where the lone pair of the N overlaps with the metal d orbitals. This is seen as being symmetric about the M-N bond axis. BUT it has come to my attention that this is not always the case; if you draw the lone pair of my pyridine rings as being along the long axis of the ring then it may not necessarily point directly at the Metal, thus causing "bent bonds". (This is easier to draw... so I'll attempt a computer drawing below!) C--C / \ M--<--N C \ / C--C Usual way of looking at bonding. C--C / / \ / <--N C M \ / C--C (I've rotated the metal in the diagram but pituring the pyridine being rotated is closer to reality... also this picture is EXAGGERATED, the N lone pair is only missing by 5-25degrees.) OK, so what I have been trying to calculate unsuccessfully so far is how much is the "overlap" changing as the pryidine twists away? I have been trying to use a package called Gaussian with no success. Pure MO calculations just don't work with Transition Metal complexes, hence why I use the AOM to calculate the energy of my d-orbitals. But, I am hoping there might be someway to sort of picture the overlap of 2 typical "dumbbell" orbitals as one is rotated away... what is the relationship beween the angle of rotation and overlap? cos alpha, cos squared alpha?? I have started looking at Mathematica recently. I am tempted to use Hydrogen like wavefunctions using the Spherical Harmonics and Radial functions and looking at the overlap integral. BUT can someone explain in really simple language the best way to do this considering that the functions will be centered at different places, and that the usual way to simplify the calculations to make phi the same for both atoms which is the assumption I need to remove! Thank you for your time. Tim Astley, Inorganic Chemistry, Univeristy of Tasmania Australia From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 10:33:36 1992 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 92 08:11:43 -0400 From: G. Ravishanker To: chemistry@ccl.net Subject: Language Exams Status: RO Hi I felt that the mandatory language exam required to get your PhD degree was a big joke and a hoax. I never came across anyone who failed during my years as a graduate student and I myself passed a French exam, not knowing a single word of French. I was commended on my translation despite a "small" mistake I had made. I translated a sentence to read something like "... and then heat the mixture until it turned black", but it should have been "... and then leave the mixture in dark". If I carried out the translation literally in a lab, you can imagine what could have happened (Thank God, I am not an experimental chemist). Almost everyone had a story to tell about their language exam. I suggested to our executive officer that they should consider giving a language exam in Sanskrit (since a lot of good old stuff may exist in Sanskrit). I forgot to tell him that I would fared as terribly as I did in French. In any case, for those of us coming from India, learning the American accent and deciphering what is going on in the first few classes should itself be considered as the language exam. Just passing an exam where people with dictionary look up words and translate does not necessarily mean some of the advantages discussed here such as how it helps in visiting foreign countries etc. Ravi From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 11:41:19 1992 Date: 11 Jun 1992 08:56:33 -0400 (EDT) From: DSOUTHA@uoft02.utoledo.edu Subject: Re: Languages To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: RO #include int main() { register int i; printf("I'd rather know C and be ignorant of French,\n"); printf("than speak French and have my VCR flashing\n"); for(i=0;i<10;i++) printf("12:00\n"); printf("all day.\n :-)\n"); } As the individual who initially seeded this debate, I should probably throw in my $0.02.... Dr. Smith's request for info on schools that allow the substitution of computer programming languages for "real" languages was made due to a question that arose during my graduate committee's review (and approval) of my Ph.D degree plan. I did NOT suggest the substitution of a computer language for a "real" language to circumvent an attempt by University to force a liberal arts education upon me. On the contrary, the one thing I have never been accused of is taking a vocational approach to learning. My University's requirement is currently "knowledge of a foreign language from the choices of French, German, or Russian", which is tested by the ability to translate relevant excerpts in the chosen language to English. This is obviously NOT a requirement designed to broaden my cognitive outlook (unless the University is so hopelessly Eurocentric as to think that useful scienctific approaches are the exclusive domain of English, French, German, and Russian speaking scientists and societies). The requirement no doubt arose due to the previous unavailability of translated journals. Of course as a Computational chemist, what will I be translating more often: French or Fortran? Most of the many objections to this substitution seem to be based around the erroneous idea that rudimentary knowledge of the linguistics of a given geographical area somehow magically imparts knowledge of its culture and perspective. That is not now and has never been the case. Studying a culture (and by extension, learning to empathize with it) is the domain of Sociology and Anthropology, not of linguistics. I studied 3 years of Spanish as a high school student. I do not remember more than a smattering of the language nor do I have a greater appreciation for, or understanding of, tacos. Knowledge of a language only begets knowledge of a culture when one uses the language to interact with the culture in question (notice that the olny posters who claim empathy with a culture have used their language ability to VISIT and INTERACT with the culture). On the other hand, I spent two semesters studying the Australian Aborigines in college (from perhaps the world's foremost expert). To this day I still look at the hours I spent on this 50,000 year-old society among the most intellectually, spiritually, and philosophically fulfilling of my entire life. So much so that I still study the culture when I have time and plan to visit the continent when I have $. >From a more practical standpoint, my research in college was based upon some literature available only in German. It took me about 4 hours to translate the required sections to English. I don't know German. I have never taken German. Is it really necessary to prove that I can read a translation dictionary? On the other hand, every day I do research I use a computer. I also know 8 different programming languages (and several system-dialects of each of those 8). I forwarded our list's Fortran/C discussion of a few months back to a programmerfriend of mine at Cray Research. They pinned it up on the board so that the whole department could get a laugh out of it (mainly due to the obvious lack of knowledge some of the posters demonstrated with regard to structured programming techniques). One of the Comp. Sci. professors whom I contact with questions from time to time described the programming in a popular and widely used semi-empirical package as "Braindead". Apparently the science of programming has escaped some of the Comp. Chem. population. In short, the philosophy behind this suggestion was one of "Since this is a VOCATIONAL ABILITY requirement, why not be tested in an ability that is relevant to my chosen field." It was not and is not a goal on my part to escape the benefits of a broad-base liberal arts education. I fully agree that everyone should know a 2nd language. For that matter I also think that everyone should also study Sociology and Anthropology and Historx0and Philosophy and Economics and Phys. Ed. and Music and.... For that matter, I think that everyone should also have both 1000 or more freefall skydives and should know the difference between Tequila and Mescal. These things were and are an enjoyable part of my education and SHOULD be part of a good education in ANY field. Again, the requirement in question was never designed to insure a well-rounded education. It was implemented when translating journals was a necessary skill and was designed to make sure that graduates were able to preform that task. To borrow J.M. Seminario's use of analogy: Jumping graduate students through linguistic hoops designed to test an outdated skill is no more likely to produce an Aristotle than slide rule requirements in engineering would be to produce a Frank Lloyd Wright. :-) My own opinions. You are welcome to yours as well. Dale Southard Dept. of Chem, U of T. From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 16:18:59 1992 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 92 10:21:42 -0400 From: Scott Gregory Flicker To: chemistry@ccl.net, cjcramer@crdec6.apgea.army.mil Subject: Re: Deeper issues Status: RO I don't really what to widen this issue of foreign language requirements but I wondering how many chemistry departments require foreign language fluency as part of the graduate program. I myself am in a department that droped language requirement (I guess long ago). Most of the I know hear have had languages either in high school or undergraduate and have totally forgotten them out of nonuse (this doesn't my friends from foreign countries who have learned many I agree that if educators what students to really learn a foreign language than it should be taught at the elementary school level. Here in the us there is almost no incentative for anybody to really know a language well enough to communicate. Scott From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 16:32:58 1992 Date: 11-JUN-1992 10:41:42.46 From: WSONNEN@EAGLE.WESLEYAN.EDU Subject: CHARMm IMPAtch (HELP!) To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: RO Is there anyone on this network who has used the IMPAtch command in CHARMm? At present, I have no documentation on how to use this command. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you, Wayne Sonnen wsonnen@eagle.wesleyan.edu P.S. CHARMm users: I understand that Bernard Brooks at the NIH offers a class on using CHARMm. I you have a copy of his class notes, I would be very interested in obtaining a copy. I am, of course, willing to compensate you for the cost of xeroxing and mailing, and would be forever indebted to you for your time. Please contact me directly to let me know if you are willing to do this for a fellow (beginning) CHARMm user. From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 16:57:13 1992 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 92 11:07:43 -0400 From: Lorraine Rellick Status: RO Dear Netters, I would like some advice on what programs you've found that calculate parameters for generation of theoretical CD spectra for proteins - Thanks, Lori Rellick, Biochemistry Dept. OSU From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 18:53:10 1992 Date: 11 Jun 1992 12:09:11 -0400 (EDT) From: "DR. DOUGLAS A. SMITH, UNIVERSITY OF TOLEDO" Subject: programming languages really are languages To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: RO Just thought I would forward this interesting note to the net, since it came to me directly. I like the debate - it really is interesting to see and hear what others think about this issue. I will have some more and final comments in a day or two. Doug Smith ========================================================================== From: IN%"ornitz@Kodak.COM" 11-JUN-1992 06:06:10.00 To: IN%"dsmith@uoft02.utoledo.edu" CC: Subj: Programming "languages" Return-path: Date: 10 Jun 1992 10:10:43 -0400 (EDT) From: ornitz@Kodak.COM (Barry Ornitz) Subject: Programming "languages" To: dsmith@uoft02.utoledo.edu Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1992 16:22 -0500 From: Katrina Werpetinski Subject: 3-D Integration grids (again) To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: RO [ Please pardon my ignorance. I'm just a lowly chemical engineer pretending to be a computational chemist. :) ] I'm struggling with a problem in an LCGTO-LDF-SCF code concerning the numerical integration for the fitting of the exchange potential. The present code uses 26 angular points, randomly rotated(1) at each of the Gauss-Legendre radial points. This is insufficient for the problems I'm interested in studying (dihedral angles and torsional energy barriers). I've bumped it up to 110 points thanks to a couple of people who sent me the code to generate the additional angular points and weights. This takes care of the accuracy problem, but the program now takes significantly longer to run. I know I can get rid of many of the angular points in the core region. I'm also thinking of changing the radial grid. Does anyone have a favorite method of forming a grid (ie which radial quadrature to use, what criterion to use for when to increase the # of angular points, how many angular points to use, etc) and any reasoning behind it? Katrina werpetin@ecs.umass.edu Delly(2) doesn't specify what order angular grids or what sort of radial grid Dmol uses. Andzelm and Wimmer(3) use up to 302 angular points (randomly rotated) and Gauss-Chebyshev quadrature for the radial points in DGauss. Becke(4) uses up to 194 angular points and Gauss-Chebyshev for the radial points. Fournier and DePristo(5) say deMon uses a grid like Becke's with rotation of the angular points. Dunlap(6) uses 26 angular points and a logaritmically increasing grid that starts at the first Herman-Skillman point. 1 R.S.Jones, J.W.Mintmire, and B.I.Dunlap, IJQCS 22, 77-84 (1988) 2 B.Delly, J. Chem. Phys. 92, 508-517 (1990) 3 J.Andzelm and E. Wimmer, J. Chem. Phys. 96, 1280-1303 (1992) 4 A.D.Becke, J. Chem. Phys. 88, 2547-2553 (1988) 5 Rene Fournier and Andrew E. DePristo, J. Chem. Phys. 96, 1183-1193 (1992) 6 Brett Dunlap, J. Phys. Chem 90, 5524-5529 (1986) From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 00:26:39 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 14:21:01 EDT From: bernhold@qtp.ufl.edu To: chemistry@ccl.net Subject: Idea verus implementation of language requirement Status: RO A number of opinions have been expressed on the language requirement -- for the most part saying how good it is and that it should be retained. There are, however, a couple of other factors which I think are important to consider. The usual _implementation_ of the PhD language requirement in the US is a test and/or course based on translating technical material into English. As such, a "language requirement" does not insure that ability to communicate verbally in the language and does not give any experience in the culture associated with the language. Very often, the list of languages is restricted -- for example French, German, or Russian is probably the most common set of "allowed" languages. This further destroys the notion of the language requirement as a broadening experience, making the PhD more worldly or more philosophical. Although there are few (if any) journals, conferences, etc. in computer languages, understanding them is also important to many peoples' research. As a theoretical chemist, it is not suprising that I deal quite routinely with computer codes from other sources. My wife, however, is a spectroscopist. She too is required to write programs or (worse) understand other people's programs fairly frequently. Although she had Fortran 101 in her undergraduate work, she has little practical experience and is not at all comfortable with it, and this slows her work. This is a much bigger problem for her than needing to read papers in other languages. In these times of tight budgets, there are also much more practical reasons why languages requirements can be a problem. Here at UF, there were only two departments that required a foreign language for the PhD (Chemistry and Music). The German department decided that they could no longer afford to teach the service course that satisfies the requirement. I don't know how close other departments were to coming to the same decision, but the problem is obvious. Please note that I am distinguishing between the IDEA of knowing other languages and the IMPLEMENTATION of the language requirement as found in most US universities that still have one. The IMPLEMENTATION does not provide the broadening experience that was perhaps intended; nor does it it serve much practical use since technical materials can quite often be translated with the aid of a dictionary and a basic knowledge of the grammar -- without formal education. I think the IDEA remains a very valid one. As someone else pointed out, however, I believe the real failing comes before the PhD level in the US educational system. The idea of a "liberal arts" education is better implemented at the college and earlier levels. And I have yet to be convinced that the PhD is an appropriate time to rectify this failing. "Between the idea and the reailty falls the shadow" -- T.S. Eliot From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 00:27:04 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 15:11:21 EDT From: "(not CPT) Christopher J. Cramer" To: chemistry@ccl.net Subject: Deeper issues Status: RO Well, it's hard to disagree that Americans take for granted their own (majority) language's cultural and scientific pre-eminence -- a sad if easily rationalized state of affairs. In the recent debate over the importance of a language to completion of the Ph.D. degree, and the relevance of computer programming languages, I find myself fairly mainstream, i.e. fluency in other spoken languages is inherently good, but not necessarily critical to following the course of modern science, and computer languages may be worth emphasizing separately for certain career paths. What has interested me most about the furious debate, is that in the process of explaining your views on language, many of you have offered some glimpse of what you perceive the Ph.D. degree (or its foreign equivalents) to really mean. In some cases, I've been a bit surprised. The feelings seem to range from disturbingly technocratic (who cares about original thought so long as you knock out 10 reactions a week, and so forth) to perhaps over-ambitious neoclassicism (I mean, I'd like to do a quick translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls, but lifespan is passing, nu?) Since I'm about to start a faculty position and ostensibly will be conferring doctoral degrees in a few years, I have some strong opinions on this question, but since I already know MY thoughts, I'm much more interested in yours. While the issue is somewhat broader than just computational chemistry, it still seems appropriate for brief commentary on the net. What constitutes a qualified Ph.D.? Looking forward to my colleagues ruminations and fulminations . . . Chris Cramer From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 00:56:55 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1992 15:54 EST From: TIMBO Subject: Do Students Need Fortran? To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: RO We seem to have hit quite a raw nerve here, but while we're at it, maybe we should consider the need to learn a programing language at all. First let me state that I have programmed in basic, fortran, pascal and C myself, so I have no particular phobia about programing. But I find less and less reason to go out and do so. With more advanced compilers and progress in object oriented programing and GUIs, maybe the lower level programing is going the way of the slide rule. Even those directly involved in interfacing computers to instruments can now use programs such as labview, which takes much of the low level misery out of the process. Computer literacy is becoming more and more critical, but maybe the definition of "literacy" here is changing? From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 01:02:22 1992 Date: 06/10/92 16:23:15 From: ZJTG05@nap.amoco.com To: chemistry%ccl.net@vnet04.trc.amoco.com Status: RO *** Reply to note of 06/10/92 13:48 From: Joe Golab R&D Operations, NAPERVILLE C-6, x7878 Subject: NO SUBJECT PDN: chemistry%ccl.net@vnet04 void main() { printf("Four years of Latin and two years of Greek have often\n"); printf("allowed me to enjoy a few free beers as a result of\n"); printf("winning trivia contests among friends.\n\n"); printf("I wholeheartedly agree that a foreign language is a\n"); printf("great thing to be exposed to in life. Just as knowledge\n"); printf("of a computer language will go a long way in solving the\n"); printf("Schroedinger Equation.\n\n"); exit(0); } Joe Golab, Amoco Chemical Company C-6, jtgolab@nap.amoco.com :Joe From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 01:28:10 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 16:55:15 -0400 From: Scott Gregory Flicker To: DSMITH@uoft02.utoledo.edu, chemistry@ccl.net, states@ncbi.nlm.nih.gov Subject: Re: Computer languages Status: RO I see the learning of foreign language and computer programming languages as totally separate issues. If a department changed it requirements to substitute a programming, which seems silly to me, way not just drop this language requirement (both computer and foreign) altogether. Certainly with so many good computer packages why is it necessary for all chemists to know a computer language. As far as foreign languages go, its of course great to know as many as possible but how often are you going to run into to a scientist that doesn't speak english. If we tried to be able to communicate with everybody in their native language than we'd all have to learn dozens of different languages and we would not have time for chemistry or physics. Scott Flicker From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 01:57:52 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1992 15:49 CST From: "JORGE M. SEMINARIO" Subject: Lenguaje (una mas) To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: RO La sustitucion de un lenguaje extranjero por Fortran o C es una muestra mas de la decadencia que la educacion esta sufriendo actualmente en todos sus niveles. Sin intentar ser sarcastico, ello me suena como la sustitucion de algebra por beisbol o futbol en la secundaria. The substitution of a foreign language by Fortran or C seems to be one more indication of the decadence that the education is suffering nowdays at all levels. Without intents of being sarcastic, it sounds like the substitution of algebra by baseball or soccer in the high school. --------------------------------------------------------------- Jorge M Seminario Bitnet%"jsmcm@uno" Department of Chemistry Internet%"seminari@cpwsca.psc.edu" University of New Orleans TEL: 504-286-7216 New Orleans, LA 70148 FAX: 504-286-6860 --------------------------------------------------------------- From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 02:10:34 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 21:41:14 +0200 From: bayard@chitheo1.univ-lyon1.fr (BAYARD Francois URA805 LYON 72 44 82 79) Subject: A new unit for pollution ? To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: RO Dont blame me too much if I go away from computational chemistry topic this time, but this BBS is the only one of which allows me to speak with others chemists. --- be indulgent I'am just testing an idea --- Dear Netters, A few days ago, I proposed the following message to the biosph-L BBS. As now a small program is available for this calculation, I submit this idea for your cristicism. I hope that this subject which deals with modelling of pollution will be of interest to some of you. I will summarize in two weeks. Francois BAYARD PS: the program is available on request =============================================================== original message : >From bayard Thu Jun 4 17:03:06 1992 Subject: a new unit for pollution ? Aside discussion about the conference of Rio ============================================ The conference of Rio gives me the opportunity to propose a potentially new method to account for the relative level of pollution. I suggest the creation of a pollution unit which would quantize this level, so that people could gain a better understanding of the effects of their pollution on the bio-sphere. This unit situated at the molecular level could be calculated as the number of molecules contained in one litre of air or water (or "bio-fluids") after complete dispersion of the polluant into the atmosphere or water supply. m <---- nbre of molecules of polluant Pol = -------- M <---- nbre of litres of the bio-fluid present on the earth Because of the magnitude of Avogadro's number this unit will be sufficiently sensible to the human mind. In it's conception it is of the same order of magnitude as the Becquerel radiation unit. examples : ======== A few month ago I made a the calculation for the exhaust of a car burning 8 liters/100km : (it should be checked) it gives -1 -1 683 molecules. liter of air km = 683 Pol/km for CO2 -1 -1 0.2 molecules. liter of air km = 0.2 Pol/km for HC It means that when you drive 1 km, everybody on the earth will get 683 CO2 molecules more for one liter of air. Values for the total mass of bio-fluids ======================================= The reference values for the mass of atmosphere was taken from The Handbook of Chemistry and Physics (69th edition) according to A.Poldervart 1955. This point could change slightly in the future (but less than one order of magnitude). I will be happy to hear about such a unit if it already exists, and I will summarize all comments and answers. Also any suggestion on the best way to submit it to a scientific standard organisation would be appreciated. ------ Francois BAYARD GROUPE DE CHIMIE THEORIQUE - LABORATOIRE DE CHIMIE INDUSTRIELLE UNIVERSITE CLAUDE BERNARD LYON 1 | e-mail bayard@chitheo1.univ-lyon1.fr 43 Bd du 11 Novembre 1918 | fax (+33) 72 44 08 03 F-69622 VILLEURBANNE - FRANCE | tel (+33) 72 44 82 79 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From chemistry-request@ccl.net Thu Jun 11 08:01:36 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 17:22:37 -0400 From: mckelvey@Kodak.COM To: osc@Kodak.COM Status: RO Another entry in the language debate. I too agree that programming languages should not replace studies in foreign lauguages. An anecdote, if I might. With an undergrad gegree in a foreign language, and then having switched to chemistry, I will never forget some early post-doc days in France walking home from work in the afternoon after struggling with three foreign languages at one time: 1. French 2: IBM JCL 3: IBMOL-H rohf coupling-operator code. I remember practicing how to explain bits of quantum chemistry in French as a means to bring back what I knew and could use from Spanish and to prod my self to remember what someone had told me several times that day in French. I remember attending a trilingual party..people got tired in one language, and switched to another. This isn't a recommended path to approach learning science but it was different, and was a lot of fun. My household is bilingual, and my son went after a third language. None of this would have happened without the ungergraduate language. As others have said, you certainly become familiar with the culture, and dealing with the process of continually translating something to something else, learning computer programming was not so strange. Back then some computer science departments even sought after students with degrees in foreign language. John McKelvey