From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 04:49:32 1992 Date: 10 Jun 92 08:50:42+0100 From: Yves chapron Subject: Re: BITNET mail follows To: CHEMISTRY@ccl.net, PA13808%UTKVM1.BITNET@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU Status: R Please could you give editor and year for Handbook of computational Chemistry: a practical guide to chem structure and energy calculations. by TIM CLARK. Handbook of computational Chemistry: a practical guide to chem structure and energy calculations. by TIM CLARK. Thank you chapron@drac.ceng.cea.fr From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 05:34:37 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 08:36:41 GMT From: deak@aix4 Subject: Language vs Programming To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: R "A nyelvismeret helyettesite'se programoza'si tuda'ssal teljesen abszurd !" I would like to join Dr Salahub in stating that it is absurd to replace knowledge of a language with knowledge of programming! This is stated in the first line in Hungarian - which of course would not be a first choice for chemistry students anyway, but I guess there will be someone who will write this down in English, German and Russian (and in other languages I don't speak). I agree that any student of science should know at least one programming language. But science graduates are also meant to be the spiritual elite of their country. Therefore, it is vital to open their eyes onto the world, and the best way to do that is to learn a language (a real one !). Universities should promote that because to fabricate "Fachidioten" (this is in German for a professional who does not know anything outside his field) can not be their sole purpose. I think to make students learn languages would be of upmost importance in the US; here in Europe we are aware of each other and have motivation to learn languages anyway, but in the US you have to travel thousend of miles to see other cultures. As a consequence the ignorance of some young americans (not only the politicians) about the world is sometimes frightening ! Peter Deak a hungarian visitor in Germany (former postdoc in the US) deak@rhrk.uni-kl.de From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 06:57:58 1992 Date: 10 Jun 92 10:52:22 EDT From: UDIM018%FRORS31.BITNET@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU Subject: Send'em here for a few months To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: R E. M. EVLETH Dynamique des Interactions Moleculaires Universite Pierre et Marie Curie 4 Place Jussieu, Tour 22, Paris 75005 (1) 44 27 42 08 UDIM018 at FRORS31 Dear all: As for substituting fortran for German, French, Spanish, Japanese or whatever spoken language I thought that bad idea was given up long ago in graduate education in the USA. I known that learning a language for exam purposes is a bore (many things are in this life). It would be a lot more useful if the NSF had scholarships to send students to a country in which they have has no choice but to speak and read while studying. European students are mindful of the fact they "must" learn English to get ahead, and better two foreign languages than one. That sense of "mustness" has never permeated the US educational system, nor the sense that one is not really educated unless one speaks a (or several) foreign languages. The reason is that the United States is geographically isolated. Breaking that lingustic isolation should have a priority higher that substituting fortran for whatever. So send your students abroad. We send them to the USA. In the late 60s, at UCSC, I voted for such a substitution and I was wrong. Is there no progress? E. Evleth (Paris). From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 07:53:31 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 10:37 GMT From: RWOODS@VAX.MOLECULAR-BIOPHYSICS.OXFORD.AC.UK Subject: Fortran as an alternative "second language" To: CHEMISTRY Status: R As an english-speaking Canadian I was never convinced that the 8 or so years spent learning French would prove worthwhile. However, for the past year I have been a post-doc in England and have met so many MULTI-lingual scientists that I realize how narrow my former exposure was. Personally, I consider the ability to converse with foreign scientists in their native language a great asset as it not only facilitates the communication of ideas and results, but also puts the visitor at ease. In science the tendancy is often to become extremely narrowly focussed. I think that it should also be remembered that the communication of results is of paramount importance. Besides, wouldn't it be helpful to be able to read what those Comment Statements in French or German etc actually meant? Robert J. Woods Glycobiology Institute University of Oxford South Parks Road Oxford, OX1 3QU From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 09:33:37 1992 Date: 10 Jun 92 13:52:49+0100 From: Yves chapron Subject: Re: Computer languages To: DSMITH@uoft02.utoledo.EDU, salahub@ere.umontreal.CA Status: R Dennis, Je suis d'accord: C'est absolument absurde de vouloir remplacer le francais, ou toute autre langue vivante, par le fortran ou le C!!!!! La connaissance d'une langue etrangere c'est l'acces a une autre culture avec tout son patrimoine historique, artistique, litteraire.... C'est la rencontre de l'Autre avec ses diversites et ses similitudes . La science est deja assez reductrice ne parlons pas de l'informatique... Cordialement, Yves From dmschn@bb1t.monsanto.com Wed Jun 10 09:54:51 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 08:39:40 -0500 From: dmschn@bb1t.monsanto.com To: "chemistry-request@ccl.net"@tin.monsanto.com Subject: RE: Language vs Programming Status: R I too would like to join our colleagues in emphasizing the importance of learning other languages. in addition to the arguments presented thus far, it should also be pointed out that this is the age of international companies and thanks to internet among other factors the age of a truly international scientific community. For many of us foreign travel to meetings and to work on projects is part of the standard job description. Learning other languges provides the opportunity to understand a lot more than mere words---it allows us to overcome the natural tendency to assume that our perceptions of the world (on whatever level) are universal.Expecting the rest of the world to speak our language rather than learning theirs is not only rude, it also gives those who are multilingual the ultimate advantage:they have a clue to how we think. Dora Schnur From R0MIRA01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Wed Jun 10 10:15:13 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 10:17:14 EDT From: "R. Miranda" To: Status: R U. of L. PHONE: Culture: " the quality in a person or society that arises from interest in arts, letters, scholarly pursuits, etc." (The Randon House Dictionary). Culture and languages are intimately related. In these times of crisis in high school education (at least in my country), please let's not deprive our university students from an all-encompassing, global, cultural, experience. From jkl@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 10:53:09 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1992 10:53:05 -0400 From: jkl@ccl.net To: chemistry@ccl.net Subject: Re: Language Requirement Status: R Posting for Jim Given(GIVEN@SBCHEM.SUNYSB.EDU) ***************************************************** On the Language Requirement Long, long ago the language requirement was part of a broader requirement that science Ph.d's be educated people. (the Golden age) After that era faded, there was a belief that researchers should be able to read articles in the journals not translated into English, so that science students in American universities acquired at least a reading comprehension of languages such as German and Russian. (Silver age) In modern times, as education turned into training and requirements melted away, students were allowed to take the language requirement in any language they wanted. (My roommate was a Moslem Indian, and so he took his Exam in Urdu.) In general, foreign students, of whom there were steadily increasing numbers, were allowed to take the Language Exam in their native language! (the Brass age) Finally, administrators realized that this arrangement discriminated against the small numbers of American students who still bothered to take the Ph.d and thus the proposal under discussion, i.e., that candidates should be able to take the Exam in Fortran or C (the Silicon age). Can't we do a Viconian turn, that is, cycle around and start over again? PS. I get mail from a Linguistics bulletin board as well as this one. What with the dominance of language studies that focus on formal structures in grammar and take their examples from English syntax, I was led to wonder: is there a language requirement for a Ph.d in linguistics? JA Given SUNY Chemistry ----------- End Forwarded Message ----------- From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 11:02:26 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 8:00:46 CDT From: doherty@msc.EDU (David C. Doherty) Subject: Re: Computer languages To: salahub@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Salahub Dennis R.) Status: R > >C'est absolument absurde de vouloir remplacer le francais, ou toute autre >langue vivante, par le fortran ou le C!!!!! ^^ ^^ surely FORTRAN is masculine, but C? ...ducking all flames ;-) -- David C. Doherty Minnesota Supercomputer Center doherty@msc.edu From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 11:06:05 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 07:57 CDT From: NEELY%AUDUCVAX.BITNET@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU Subject: language requirements To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: R I'd like to add my vote to those who feel dropping a language requirement is a bad idea; I also agree that a computer language is no substitute! I don't see what the big deal is: surely anyone who is expecting to be able to cope with chemistry ought to be able to do what any baby can do!! I'm a first generation American, and have also been appalled at many Americans' conviction that everybody else out there thinks just like they do.... Language study is one of the best ways to have it hit home that other people can't think just like we do, because things are expressed differently in different languages... More language study, not less!! Lack of understanding results in a big comptetive disadvantage when trying to market products abroad. (This is *not* my idea of a good argument, but I find that this is the kind of argument that seems to work best these days). Irene Newhouse From jkl@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 11:27:31 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1992 11:27:26 -0400 From: jkl@ccl.net To: chemistry@ccl.net Subject: I am out till Tuesday Status: R Three things: 1) I think that we have a consensus on trading computer language for human language. I share the point of view that today's universities are frequently production lines for Fachidioten, but it is only natural in the era when science means business. Thanks God, not all !!! We probably should not drag this discussion for ever since some people will start reminding me that it is a computational chemistry list. 2) Je ne suis pas un beau ideal. Entschuldigen Sie mir bitte the mishap with my yesterday's message which due to From: line parsing error which resulted in: "Richard C. Elder, Chemistry, U of Cincinnati"@ccl.net i eto bylo poslano do: chemistry@ccl.net. I was trully unintentional. 3) I will be out of town until Tuesday. The list will work, but your requests will not be answered till this time. Sorry for taking bandwidth with administration. Jan Labanowski Ohio Supercomputer Center jkl@ccl.net From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 11:41:07 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1992 09:34 EDT From: HUDGENS@ENH.NIST.GOV Subject: Computer languages. To: Chemistry@ccl.net Status: R SIMPLY PUT: I have never seen a scientific article written in FORTRAN, C, Pascal, or any language other than those spoken commonly by human beings. Whoever coined the term language for computer codes would probably groan at the idea that these "languages" would be considered equivalent to real language just because he chose the same name for the idea of portable computer instruction protocols. Those chemistry/physics departments that offer the computer language option are perpetrating a fraud--perhaps because they fear that their output of graduates would decline otherwise. I feel that a PhD represents a certain minimum level of education which includes mastery of ideas and skills that lie outside of the major department. Committees convened to address the language problems would best put their efforts into arranging with the foreign language department a course that will better prepare their PhD candidates so that they can pass the exam. Jeff Hudgens Chemical Kinetics and Thermodynamics Division National Institute of Standards and Technology Internet: Hudgens@enh.nist.gov From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 12:45:54 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 07:57 CDT From: Subject: language requirements To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: RO I'd like to add my vote to those who feel dropping a language requirement is a bad idea; I also agree that a computer language is no substitute! I don't see what the big deal is: surely anyone who is expecting to be able to cope with chemistry ought to be able to do what any baby can do!! I'm a first generation American, and have also been appalled at many Americans' conviction that everybody else out there thinks just like they do.... Language study is one of the best ways to have it hit home that other people can't think just like we do, because things are expressed differently in different languages... More language study, not less!! Lack of understanding results in a big comptetive disadvantage when trying to market products abroad. (This is *not* my idea of a good argument, but I find that this is the kind of argument that seems to work best these days). Irene Newhouse From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 13:34:45 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 10:01:42 EDT From: states@ncbi.nlm.nih.gov (David States) To: chemistry@ccl.net, DSMITH@uoft02.utoledo.edu Subject: Re: Computer languages Status: RO Programming and foreign langauge are rather different issues to me. Agreed that knowledge of foreign languages is useful in academics, but how about the other side of the question: How many departments do not require some knowledge of programming for an advanced degree? In an age of databases advanced laboratory automation and high speed network communications, can a physcial scientist with no knowledge of programming really be considered qualified? While our computational resources have been growing exponentiallly, the world of point and click interfaces and slick GUIs has introduced new barriers to understanding. Is it acceptable for a student to use the output of a point and click statistical analysis or database retrieval package without knowing or being able to test what is going inside? Without the ability to program, the student has no alternative but to accept them. Programming is a discipline like calculus or statistics. Once you know FORTRAN, hacking a bit of Basic, Pascal, or the command language for some robot is a whole lot easier. Students who don't know the first thing about programming, are likely not to even try. David States National Center for Biotechnology Information / National Library of Medicine From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 17:29:58 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1992 09:54 EDT From: IRIKURA@ENH.NIST.GOV Subject: An American opinion To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: RO The relevant issue is whether foreign language study is an appropriate requirement for a Ph.D. in chemistry. I suppose that the origin of the language requirement in this country is the fact that most of the chemical literature was, in the past, in German or French. Competence in the field therefore required an ability to read this literature. Today, the weight of the literature has shifted to English. Although knowledge of other languages certainly makes more of the literature accessible, basic competence requires only English. (I've studied a few European languages and rarely use them in my work.) By the way, I have never encountered a journal written in FORTRAN or a conference conducted in that "language." Cultural reasons, such as avoiding the dreaded "Fachidiot" ("nerd," in American) label, are entirely separate. It seems more appropriate for this to be covered during an undergraduate, liberal-arts curriculum. In addition, it's not clear that merely studying a language is sufficient to become acquainted with the corresponding culture(s). Conversely, it is straightforward and commonplace to study a culture without learning any of its languages. The best way (as pointed out in a previous note) is, of course, to live in that culture for a time. Farther from the point, I question the degree of cultural diversity that can be acquired by the study of languages indigenous to a small region such as Europe. If genuine diversity is the goal, then we from the European/American culture should study Asian and African languages and cultures. I admit that I've never been motivated to do that. Regards, Karl irikura@enh.nist.gov ---------------------- Disclaimer: The above opinions are mine personally, and do not necessarily represent the views of anyone else in the country or its government service. ---------------------- From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 17:43:22 1992 To: Yves chapron Subject: Re: Computer languages Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 10:07:51 -0400 From: ngo@tammy.harvard.edu Status: RO Yves chapron wrote: chapron> Dennis, chapron> Je suis d'accord: chapron> C'est absolument absurde de vouloir remplacer le francais, ou chapron> toute autre langue vivante, par le fortran ou le C!!!!! chapron> chapron> La connaissance d'une langue etrangere c'est l'acces a une chapron> autre culture avec tout son patrimoine historique, chapron> artistique, litteraire.... C'est la rencontre de l'Autre chapron> avec ses diversites et ses similitudes . La science est deja chapron> assez reductrice ne parlons pas de l'informatique... chapron> Cordialement, Yves #define JE_SUIS_D_ACCORD_AUSSI 1 /* ou, "aussi d'accord?" */ main() { return JE_SUIS_D_ACCORD_AUSSI; /* Cordialement, Tom */ } From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 18:36:13 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 13:09:57 EDT From: "R. Miranda" To: Status: RO U. of L. PHONE: Culture: " the quality in a person or society that arises from interest in arts, letters, scholarly pursuits, etc." (The Randon House Dictionary). Culture and languages are intimately related. In these times of crisis in high school education (at least in my country), please let's not deprive our university students from an all-encompassing, cultural, experience. Raoul. From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 18:37:50 1992 Date: 10 Jun 92 09:34:00 PST From: "MAX VASQUEZ" Subject: Languages To: "chemistry" Status: RO Querer reemplazar el Castellano, o cualquier otro idioma humano, por C, FORTRAN o Pascal es un concepto absurdo (casi barbaro). Thanks (Merci) Dennis From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 18:38:29 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1992 10:11:28 MST From: MADISON@SESMI4.LA.ASU.EDU (Mark Madison) Subject: languages To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: RO I am a graduate student in Chemistry. I am fluent in several computer languages and have studied Spanish and German but I am nowhere near fluent in these spoken languages. I went to Europe several months ago and it became very clear very rapidly that my ability to communicate was extremely limited. Substituting a computer language for a spoken language is a grave disservice to both the student and the scientific community in general. Mark Madison Arizona State University From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 18:38:29 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 11:04:12 EDT From: David Maxwell To: chemistry@ccl.net Subject: Language Exams Status: RO Yes, I agree that individuals should have some knowledge of a second language, but I disagree that tests should be forced on the students when they are in graduate school. I believe this is "too little and too late" as they would say. The schooling should be mandatory at an early age, not in college and definitely not in graduate school. My first experience with a foreign language came when I was a junior in college. Frankly, the language was interfering too much with my area of study. I didn't get a whole lot out of it because I was upset that I was having to deal with it this late in my study. You might ask how I made it into college without a foreign language. Well, my high school allowed me to substitute my music study for the language. Believe me, I got significantly more out of my hours with the music than I ever would of out of the pathetic language courses offered in high school. What I'm saying, I guess, is that a second language should be taught early and it should be taught correctly. You can't change the past, so I believe these tests are unnecessary and just a plain bother when given at the graduate school level. I don't feel that I'm less educated because I'm not fluent in another language. I have other abilities which I feel are just as important. As to the original question, I agree that a computer language could never take the place of a foreign language. People can't effectively communicate with other people with a computer language. However, individuals can communicate with a computer via a computer language. This is a skill of which many people are lacking. This is especially important in todays world of computers. How fair do you think it is to require a computer test in graduate school? Just my thoughts, -Dave (davdoctor.chem.yale.edu) From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 18:42:17 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 10:34:24 EDT From: "Janet Del Bene" To: chemistry@ccl.net Subject: Fortran, a foreign language????? Status: RO I completely agree with those who oppose using Fortran to satisfy a language requirement. Such a substitution really misses the point of this requirement. I would suggest that US universities should strengthen the language requirement, not dilute it. I doubt that I am alone when I say how much I admire those who do not speak English as their first language, but come to meetings and lecture in English. I wish more of us who speak English could reciprocate. Janet E. Del Bene From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 18:47:49 1992 Date: 10 Jun 1992 12:01:15 -0400 (EDT) From: CULMER@uoft02.utoledo.edu Subject: Foreign Languages To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: RO My boss' latest request for information describing the foreign language requirements of departments where a programming language is accepted as a substitute to a spoken/written language has gathered several responses and I feel that I must add my 2 cents to this discussion. One false assumption which most of you seem to have made is that a graduate student really learns a foreign language when they must meet a foreign language requirement. Granted, my knowledge of how other universities handle the foreign language requirement is limited, but I can definitely say that this is not true in most cases at my university. Cramming for 4 weeks prior to taking the exam does not constitute "knowing" a foreign language. How do you test knowledge of a foreign language? We must translate 60 pages from a journal, walk to the foreign language department, and they will select 5 or so pages which we must translate within 2 hours with dictionary in hand. I took 3 years of German in high school, but will do this in French for obvious reasons (l'epoxydation is not too difficult to translate whether there is a slanted line over the "e" or not). Knowledge of a programming language/discipline is much more easily tested and requires that one truely understands the language, not to mention that this could also be designed to test reasoning ability. Jeff Hedgens opened up another aspect to this discussion in stating that departments which offer this substitute may do so out of fear of declining output of grad. students. This was addressed in C and E News some time ago. All non-American people take note: I am the minority in my own university - I am an American Grad. Student. True, this is probably mainly due to our inept educational system at the primary and secondary level, but anything which we can do to entice more American grad. students into the sciences should be done - even if this means dropping the foreign language requirement altogether and shortening the length of time it takes to obtain a PhD. Keep in mind that American graduate schools seem to miss the point in the sciences and that is RESEARCH! The first 2 to 2 1/2 years are taken up doing course work, cumes, proposals, foreign language exams, etc. Most of this is due to the fact that American graduate schools must make-up for what was not taught at the undergraduate level and it is at the undergraduate level which I believe foreign language requirements should be met. Such is life, I will just walk over to the foreign language department and take the French exam next month, even though this means I will waste the rest of this month translating 60 pages of French and not doing research. Chuck Ulmer D.A.Smith Group Dept. of Chemistry University of Toledo Toledo, OH These are only my opinions, take them for what they are worth. From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 18:49:21 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 09:30:55 -0400 From: fredvc@esvax.dnet.dupont.com To: chem@chem Subject: RE: COMPUTER LANGUAGES Status: RO Imagine my surprise to login this morning and find 12 netter messages, 9 of which were devoted to the issue of FORTRAN as a "foreign" language!!! This notion seems imminently "practical" on the surface but, in my judgement, does not hold up under closer examination. I think too much is made of the foreign language requirement as an "obstacle" to getting one's degree,... and research advisors encourage the carping that goes on because they don't want their students taking time off from their research to prepare for these exams. I simply told my advisor that I was going into seclusion for ~4 weeks each time (He was decidedly NOT thrilled!!). I studied the language 8-10 hours a day, and passed each on the first try (German in 1964, French in 1965). In truth, I spent LESS time on the languages than my colleagues who (a) spent numerous hours complaining about the requirement, (b) studied half-heartedly, (c) failed the exam, and (d) wound up taking the course to meet the requirement. I HAD finished two years of German in college (1957). and my MS advisor very wisely urged me to take the first-year college French course (1959). My "success", however, stemmed from the fact that I looked upon the languages requirements as a legitimate requirement ("They" got to make the rules, after all!!), and treated it as such!! o Do I have working familiarity with either French or German??... not at the moment. I have never developed good conversational skills. o Could I manage to translate German or French text??... with the aid of a dictionary. I have, on several occasions, done my own translations of technical stuff when the wait for our translation service was longer than I could tolerate. o Have I used French or German in a cultural context???... a little: (a) I remember enough to know when opera libretti, art songs, etc., have been badly translated; (b) I am having some fun now doing my own translations of the texts of the chorales that Bach used for Der (Die?, Das?) Orglebuchlien. I do not believe that there has ever been a consensus as to the purpose of the foreign language requirement(s) for advanced degrees in the US. I have encountered two, rather different, rationales: (1) The view most often expressed within the natural sciences community goes something like this: "The purpose in gaining mastery of foreign languages is to enable one to read the literature *IN ONE'S FIELD*. The languages chosen should represent the countries most active in one's field." Thus, the options for scientists have tended to be German, and French or Russian. {My German exam was based on this view. We had to handle some simple grammar, vocabulary (Ger <-> Eng.), and general translation, but then went on to the translation (Ger -> Eng) of a technical article.} (2) From the liberal arts camp I have heard the following: "The language requirements for the Ph. D. are CULTURAL requirements. A truly edu- cated person should be able to read the great literature of the ages (meaning, usually, the great literature of western civilization!) IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE, thereby capturing the nuances originally intended by the authors." This view has evolved from an earlier description of the truly educated person as one who had mastered Greek (for the study of the Bible in its original text, and Latin (to be able to follow the mass, and to read the writings of the early church fathers). {My French exam started out much like the German. However, there was no technical translation involved. The "trial by fire" was a large section dealing with *French synonyms*!!} Clearly, neither FORTRAN or C constitutes a "foreign language" under either of these rationales. One must take a rather narrow, "careerist" view of the Ph. D. degree to come up with a rationale for acceptance of programming languages in lieu of a "real" language. This may be appropriate for a "D. Chem." degree but not, I think for a Ph. D. degree. If one remembers that "Ph. D." stands for *Doctor of Philosophy*, one has to question the "careerist" view that currently prevails towards the degree, especially in the sciences, and PARTICULARLY in chemistry. How many recent Ph. D. organic chemists are truly competent to teach undergraduate physical chemistry, or vice versa??? I admit to being rather sensitive on this issue, for I benefited greatly from the older view that all Ph. D. chemists should be well schooled in the basics of all areas. My mentor went through grad school at a time when ALL students had to take the advanced courses in each area. (Yes, not passing advanced organic could derail a would-be physical chemist!!) Having gone to a small school which lost its physical chemist to industry, I thank the "old" system each day that there was someone there who could competently step into the breach for us. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ FREDERIC A. VAN-CATLEDGE Scientific Computing Division || Office: (302) 695-1187 Central Research & Development Dept. || FAX: (302) 695-9658 The Du Pont company || P. O. Box 80320 || Internet: fredvc@esvax.dnet.dupont.com Wiilmington DE 19880-0320 || ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 19:14:28 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 11:56:44 -0400 From: ryan%phmms0.mms.smithkline.com@phinet.smithkline.com (Dominic Ryan) To: chemistry@ccl.net Subject: Fortran and second languages Status: RO Hello all, I agree totally with those who have already made the point that one cannot equate Fortran and French. However, I suspect that the second language requirement began in chemistry departments not as a "second language" one, but rather as a specific German language requirement with the goal proficiency in the language of a huge body of the world's chemical literature. This was the stated aim when I was an undergraduate at the University of Ottawa. I believe that this is a mistake in today's world where, like it or not, English is the lingua-franca of science. Consider then what might be a useful chemistry curriculum substitute for this type of requirement. It was directed at one aspect of the student's ability to function within the framework of science, not to round them out as individuals. With this in mind, a computer language does much to give to the new scientist a connection with and ability to relate to a tool that increasingly affects all of science. I think that the German requirement gradually evolved into a general second language requirement. At Ottawa this had not happened since the university was (and I assume still is) essentially bilingual. Many, if not most, students already had significantly greater expertise in French that a simple second language course would provide. I spent all my pre-college years in French and I was certainly not alone. So, perhaps faculty asking this question should look back and see if it had deeper roots. The question of asking students to take a second language is part of a larger question. How specialized to we want science majors to become? Do we consider it important that they take non-science courses in order to be better rounded individuals? I think most would agree we do. Peter Deak stated that science graduate are called upon to be the spiritual elite of their country. I categorically disagree with this statement. Have we forgotten the philosophers, writers, artists etc. etc.? Scientists are carving out a technocracy for themselves where the ability to manipulate a complicated tool (computers, cars, telecommunication etc.) translates into power, not spiritual direction; let us not confuse them. Still, it is clearly important for students to be exposed to 'the arts'. What form then should that take? I contend that a second language, newly introduced that late in a student's life, may be of limited lasting value. A much more important place for it is starting in elementary school. Consider also the value of, say, French in the US. I do not deny that a second language is good, far from it, but I think it might be better to ask the college student to take courses in literature, philosophy, perhaps music and so on. They will have greater long term impact than a second language French course that will become irrelevant in a year or two. Multiculturalism is wonderful and stimulating where it exists and I enjoyed it growing up in Canada, but it cannot be deposited in the USA in the image of what may exist in Europe or Canada. It has to come from within and will only come from a population that is educated more broadly. Deal with language early and if possible apolitically; if they don't have it by the time they are freshmen then teach the humanities at a level that may transform thinking instead of reciting grammar. M. Dominic Ryan (215)-270-6529 SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 19:18:13 1992 From: Wolfgang Sauer Subject: "real" vs. Computer languages To: CHEMISTRY@ccl.net Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 16:28:18 METDST Status: RO Dear Netters, I might be missing the point, but wasn't the starting point of this whole conversation whether or not only "real" languages should be _compulsory_ _prerequisites_ for entering a chemistry course ? As so many who responded so far, I do think foreign languages should be an integral part of anybodies education, but if one freely chooses not to learn something so important (and rewarding, I dare say) - and if this is possible in his/her education system (in Germany it is not), why should s/he be denied access to a chemistry course ? Same for computer languages: of course, nowadays anybody should have at least basic skills in operating one of these greyish (well, mostly) boxes, but I do know quite a few _excellent_ synthetic chemists that never touched one of these beasts. In fact, I know quite a number of computer users that don't know a word of any programming language, experts in their fields nevertheless. Maybe someone from a university allowing this choice could tell us some of his experiences whether the quality of the chemists has changed as a result. Best regards, Wolfgang Sauer -- +======================================+=====================================+ | Wolfgang Sauer | | | Institut fuer Organische Chemie I | "You have to be three standard | | Henkestr. 42, D-8520 Erlangen, FRG | deviations away from a normal | | | personality to like UNIX." | | sauer@organik.uni-erlangen.de | | | Tel.: 49/0 - 9131 - 85 - 2952 | Morris Jones (C&T) | | Fax: - 9132 | | +======================================+=====================================+ From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 19:37:28 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1992 13:23:37 -0500 To: chemistry@ccl.net From: gmeier@ncsa.uiuc.edu Subject: language debate Status: RO I vote with those who oppose the substitution of a programming language for a foreign language in the chemistry curriculum. Programming skills are increasingly important for many chemists, but programming should be considered part of the technical training for a chemist--don't substitute it for for one of the few humanities requirements that remain in many chemistry degree programs. I agree that the language skills should be acquired well in advance of graduate school, but I think the skills are important enough that they still merit testing (and if necessary, remediation) at the graduate level. Fortran passt fur eine auslandische Sprache......Nicht! Gary Meier FMC Corporation P.O. Box 8 Princeton, NJ 08543 609-452-2300, ext. 4602 From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 19:37:48 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 10:39:17 CDT From: liberte@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Daniel LaLiberte) To: chemistry@ccl.net Subject: Re: language requirements Status: RO As a computer scientist, I would agree that any one programming language is not nearly the equivalent of a natural language. However, programming is a different way of thinking compared with natural language, common sense thinking. If the goal is to promote different ways of thinking, I dont think learning a foreign language has much to offer - they are all basically the same, at least all the romance languages. Consider russian, oriental, african, or american indian languages if you want to try something different. I would be in favor of requiring a little bit of many natural languages rather than a lot of one. On the other hand, the wide diversity of hundreds of programming languages have many more interesting ways of thinking embedded in them. If you want to expand world awareness, I think there are better ways than just learning the basics of a foreign language. Social and history studies would go farther than the ability to order a meal and ask where the bathroom is. Besides, English is the predominant language of the western world. Americans, as English speakers, rarely need know anything more to speak with almost anyone they come across. If you are serious about learning a foreign language well, it should be required from grade school - better from birth. Babies learn language alot easier than adults. If *you* want to learn a foreign language for whatever reason, then fine. But I'd rather spend my time filling my head more usefully, like learning enough Chemistry to speak with Chemists. Dan LaLiberte National Center for Supercomputing Applications liberte@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Join the League for Programming Freedom: league@prep.ai.mit.edu) From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 21:00:26 1992 Date: 10 June 1992 12:10:40 CDT From: "Bob Goldstein 6-6664" To: Status: RO > Dennis, > Je suis d'accord: > C'est absolument absurde de vouloir remplacer le francais, ou toute autre > langue vivante, par le fortran ou le C!!!!! > > ..... Wow, I'm sure glad we don't have any religious debates over language choice on this list (such as the fortran vs. C "discussions" on the more computer geek oriented lists) :-) As one who can only speak English, C and fortran (possibly not in that order), I was pleased to understand upwards of 80% of the above note. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that fortran is in any sense equivalent to or a substitute for French or Hungarian. To me, the questions are mostly separate: 1) Should a student be granted an advanced degree in science without knowing rudimentary programming? 2) Should a student be granted an advanced (or otherwise) degree in anything without knowing a *real* foreign language? 3) Should this requirement be placed at the graduate level in scientific disciplines, or elsewhere? 4) More practically, Americans tend to lack motivation and opportunity, which results in poor performance. Should we attempt to redress this at the graduate level in chemistry? I took enough French at the high school and college level to realize that "lost in translation" really means there are thoughts you just can't think without knowing the other language, so I am certainly not complaining about the usefulness of multiple languages. I just think one should not impose aggravation on students that in practice will not achieve the desired goals. Either make it a serious requirement, or do away with it. bobg From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 23:05:15 1992 Date: 10 Jun 1992 14:04:15 -0400 (EDT) From: JADAMS@uoft02.utoledo.EDU Subject: languages To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: RO There is one important factor that everyone is forgetting: all of the young coeds who are willing to help the inexperienced novice. Sure, after four years of latin and two years of ancient greek I was initially disenchanted about the idea of learning a "language of scientific importance", but the lovely coeds who "helped" me with my studies more then made up for it. If only all of our classes would be like this. Besides, it would not hurt some of us to leave our offices and actually see the other buildings located on campus! Adams University of Toledo From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 23:06:02 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1992 12:49 CST From: "JORGE M. SEMINARIO" Subject: Lenguajes To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: RO La sustitucion de un lenguaje extranjero por Fortran o C es una muestra mas de la decadencia que la educacion esta sufriendo actualmente en todos sus niveles. Sin intentar ser sarcastico, ello me suena como la sustitucion de algebra por beisbol or futbol en la secundaria. The substitution of a foreign language by Fortran or C seems to be one more indication of the decadence that the education is suffering nowdays at all levels. Without intents of being sarcastic, it sounds like the substitution of algebra by baseball or soccer in the high school. From chemistry-request@ccl.net Wed Jun 10 23:42:48 1992 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 92 11:12:46 -0700 From: jk@iris68.biosym.COM (Kottalam) To: chemistry@ccl.net Status: RO 1) Those Chemistry departments which make French and Fortran equivalent know that the foreign language requirement is out of place in contemporary doctorate programms in Chemistry. But they have difficulty removing that tradition altogether. So they come up with these funny ideas. 2) To me English is a foreign language. But that was not accepted! Kottalam jk@biosym.com (619) 546 5366 \ | / Scientists are objective; - O - The Earth sucks and they call it gravity. / | \