Susi,

Alexandre Hocquet, Fr= =C3=A9d=C3=A9ric Wieber and I are already working on a project both to arch= ive CCL and also to enable their historical research using the CCL corpus a= s a dataset.

As part of this effort, I've alre= ady scraped the entire history of CCL into a local SQL database, which I up= date monthly with the new messages and which is backed up in multiple place= s. There is thus minimal worry about losing the archive!

For now, the database is unfortunately not in a condition where it c= an be easily shared. An eventual goal is to publish/share it in some fashio= n, though there are numerous questions to answer and appreciable work to be= done to get to that point. We'll keep the list posted.

<= br>

-Brian

On Wed, May 18, 202= 2 at 12:24 PM Susi Lehtola susi.lehtola(~)helsinki.fi <owner-chemistry#,#ccl.net> wrote:

Sent to CCL by: Susi Lehtola [susi.lehtola * helsinki.fi]
Hi,

per the recent discussion, the longevity of the CCL is under threat.
This is very unfortunate, since the CCL is a real treasure trove of
information.

I wonder if the CCL archives could be stored on a git repository, for
instance, as this would facilitate the long term storage of the
information. A local copy of the messages would also make it much easier to search for any pertinent discussions.

Susi
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Susi Lehtola, PhD=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Adjunc= t Professor
susi.lehtola\a/helsinki.fi=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 University of Hel= sinki
http://susilehtola.github.io/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Finland
--------------------------------------------------------
Susi Lehtola, FT=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 dosentti
susi.lehtola\a/helsinki.fi=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Helsingin yliopis= to
http://susilehtola.github.io/
--------------------------------------------------------

-=3D This is automatically added to each message by the mailing script =3D-=
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Before posting, check wait time at: http://www.ccl.net

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--00000000000075780805df722340-- From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Fri May 20 16:46:01 2022 From: "David Mannock dmannock(a)yahoo.com" To: CCL Subject: CCL: CCL archives onto git? Message-Id: <-54705-220520163844-5025-3rhFGM9xtKC7TtLdP1a14A _ server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: David Mannock Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_951970_358291390.1653079106344" Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 20:38:26 +0000 (UTC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: David Mannock [dmannock**yahoo.com] ------=_Part_951970_358291390.1653079106344 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian et al., This is excellent news! If it helps to know this I use a good file conversi= on online app called Zamzar. It's free as are others. Image files can be co= nverted to text using similar free apps with OCR (sometimes included with s= omething called a "FAX machine"). There are also free large file emailer ap= ps which keep your files online for a week. I've used Filemail & Wetransfer= . I send zipped files (7-zip) & have emailed files of 150MB. Other brand na= me products will want $$ for storage. The former apps may be one way to cre= ate back ups with selected group members. I have portable USB HDD drives he= re for personal files. I don't know if SSDs can be used in this way by USB,= eSATA or ethernet. My former University gives us significant additional Google drive space for= free that may be another back up solution at your institution. When Google= does updates, it may take a while to get access to stored info though. Hope those options help you. David Mannock On Friday, May 20, 2022, 10:16:02 a.m. MDT, Brian Skinn brian.skinn(~)g= mail.com wrote: =20 =20 Susi, Alexandre Hocquet, Fr=C3=A9d=C3=A9ric Wieber and I are already working on = a project both to archive CCL and also to enable their historical research = using the CCL corpus as a dataset. As part of this effort, I've already scraped the entire history of CCL into= a local SQL database, which I update monthly with the new messages and whi= ch is backed up in multiple places. There is thus minimal worry about losin= g the archive! For now, the database is unfortunately not in a condition where it can be e= asily shared. An eventual goal is to publish/share it in some fashion, thou= gh there are numerous questions to answer and appreciable work to be done t= o get to that point. We'll keep the list posted. -Brian On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 12:24 PM Susi Lehtola susi.lehtola(~)helsinki.fi wrote: Sent to CCL by: Susi Lehtola [susi.lehtola * helsinki.fi] Hi, per the recent discussion, the longevity of the CCL is under threat. This is very unfortunate, since the CCL is a real treasure trove of information. I wonder if the CCL archives could be stored on a git repository, for instance, as this would facilitate the long term storage of the information. A local copy of the messages would also make it much easier to search for any pertinent discussions. Susi --=20 -------------------------------------------------------- Mr. Susi Lehtola, PhD=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Adjunc= t Professor susi.lehtola\a/helsinki.fi=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 University of = Helsinki http://susilehtola.github.io/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Finland -------------------------------------------------------- Susi Lehtola, FT=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 dosentti susi.lehtola\a/helsinki.fi=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Helsingin ylio= pisto http://susilehtola.github.io/ -------------------------------------------------------- -=3D This is automatically added to each message by the mailing script =3D- E-mail to subscribers: CHEMISTRY=3D=3D=EF=BF=BDl.net or use: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0E-mail to administrators: CHEMISTRY-REQUEST=3D=3D=EF=BF=BDl.net or use =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Job: http://www.ccl.net/jobs=20=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=20 ------=_Part_951970_358291390.1653079106344 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Brian et al.,

This is excellent news! If it helps to know this I use a good file con= version online app called Zamzar. It's free as are others. Image files can = be converted to text using similar free apps with OCR (sometimes included w= ith something called a "FAX machine"). There are also free large file email= er apps which keep your files online for a week. I've used Filemail & W= etransfer. I send zipped files (7-zip) & have emailed files of 150MB. O= ther brand name products will want $$ for storage. The former apps may be o= ne way to create back ups with selected group members. I have portable USB = HDD drives here for personal files. I don't know if SSDs can be used in thi= s way by USB, eSATA or ethernet.

My former University giv= es us significant additional Google drive space for free that may be anothe= r back up solution at your institution. When Google does updates, it may ta= ke a while to get access to stored info though.

Hope thos= e options help you.

<= div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">David Mannock

=20

On Friday, May 20, 2022, 10:16:02 a.m. MDT, Brian Skinn= brian.skinn(~)gmail.com <owner-chemistry###ccl.net> wrote:

Susi,<= /div>

Alexandre Hocquet, Fr=C3=A9d=C3=A9ric Wieber and = I are already working on a project both to archive CCL and also to enable t= heir historical research using the CCL corpus as a dataset.

<= /div>

As part of this effort, I've already scraped the entire history o= f CCL into a local SQL database, which I update monthly with the new messag= es and which is backed up in multiple places. There is thus minimal worry a= bout losing the archive!

For now, the database is = unfortunately not in a condition where it can be easily shared. An eventual= goal is to publish/share it in some fashion, though there are numerous que= stions to answer and appreciable work to be done to get to that point. We'l= l keep the list posted.

-Brian<= /div>

On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 12:24= PM Susi Lehtola susi.lehtola(~)helsinki.fi <owner-chemistry=3D=3D=EF=BF=BDl.net> wrote:

Sent to CCL by: Susi Lehtola [susi.lehtola * helsinki.fi] Hi,

per the recent discussion, the longevity of the CCL is under threat.
This is very unfortunate, since the CCL is a real treasure trove of
information.

I wonder if the CCL archives could be stored on a git repository, for
instance, as this would facilitate the long term storage of the
information. A local copy of the messages would also make it much easier to search for any pertinent discussions.

Susi
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Susi Lehtola, PhD Adjunc= t Professor
susi.lehtola\a/helsinki.fi = University of Helsinki
http://susilehtola.github.io/ = Finland
--------------------------------------------------------
Susi Lehtola, FT &nb= sp; dosentti
susi.lehtola\a/helsinki.fi = Helsingin yliopisto
http://susilehtola.github.io/
--------------------------------------------------------

-=3D This is automatically added to each message by the mailing script =3D-=

E-mail to subscribers: CHEMISTRY=3D=3D=EF=BF=BDl.net or use:
http://www.ccl= .net/cgi-bin/ccl/send_ccl_message

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http://www.ccl= .net/cgi-bin/ccl/send_ccl_message

http://www.ccl.ne= t/chemistry/sub_unsub.shtml

Before posting, check wait time at: http://www.ccl.net

Job: http://www.ccl.net/jobs
Conferences: http://serv= er.ccl.net/chemistry/announcements/conferences/

Search Messages: http://www.ccl.= net/chemistry/searchccl/index.shtml

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------=_Part_951970_358291390.1653079106344-- From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Fri May 20 19:48:01 2022 From: "Steven Kirk stevenrkirk||gmail.com" To: CCL Subject: CCL: Some bad news ahead for CCL Message-Id: <-54706-220520194050-23166-HAZVQ2VCHim/sd8zC0TgPQ\a/server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: Steven Kirk Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Date: Sat, 21 May 2022 07:40:31 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: Steven Kirk [stevenrkirk]_[gmail.com] On 5/18/2022 11:24 AM, Steven Kirk stevenrkirk^gmail.com wrote: > > Sent to CCL by: Steven Kirk [stevenrkirk{:}gmail.com] > On 5/18/2022 4:03 AM, Brian Skinn brian.skinn%gmail.com wrote: >> This is a good point. Do you have suggestions for globally-available >> mailing list services, Steven/Sikander/anyone? >> > > I have consulted the HackerNews (https://news.ycombinator.com) hivemind > here: > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31418908 > OK, as promised, here's a snapshot (lightly edited for extraneous whitespace/UI headings and 'flattened' from the original branching structure) of the discussion on HN. If anyone wants it, the HN link is above. I'm not sure if the HN thread will be archived or how long it will stay available. Steven Kirk ===== HN discussion ===== As a result of a discussion on one of the longest-running academic/scientific mailing list servers I know, the Computational Chemistry List (CCL.net), I want to consult the HN hivemind. I'd like to get your recommendations for email mailing list servers or providers. While CCL.net is more than just a mailing list, this is the main way at least a couple of generations of busy scientists have interacted with CCL. Some have suggested a Google group, a forum or even LinkedIn as a replacement for this mailing list. Such alternative methods of group communication seem to have worked out for some user groups of scientific software packages (especially those mainly focussed on code developers), but I would assert that the breadth of the subject matter (computational chemistry as a whole) favours a 'slower' mode of communication that does not require the user to invest time in regularly checking a website. Additionally, it is worth noting that not everyone, depending on location, has easy access to either Google or LinkedIn. Hence my request: reliable, secure, globally accessible email list providers/services/software that stand a good chance of sticking around as long as CCL.net already has. I'll summarize replies to the CCL.net list, and post a HN link to the answers here on the CCL.net list. Many thanks! Answers ======= mike_d 2 days ago | next [–] Please have the administrator of CCL.net reach out to me at the email in my profile. I can provide compute and bandwidth at no cost to help offset some of the operational burden. Because it would operate from my network under address space I control, I can help with resolving deliverability issues. upofadown 2 days ago | prev | next [–] It might help to detail what is wrong with the current mail list stuff. The requirements are not clear here. nmjenkins 2 days ago | prev | next [–] You should check out Topicbox: https://www.topicbox.com (disclosure: I worked on it). It's really good hosted mailing lists from the team at Fastmail. My one line description is "Topicbox is to Mailman what Slack is to IRC". crossroadsguy 2 days ago | parent | next [–] What are my options if I want — what mailman does but: - email address of any user never disclosed to any other user - name/username shown should always be predefined — not read from mail/replied received - easy user management — add/remove/disable/ban/flag-and-put-on-hold etc — communication not publicly available or indexed - is not a forum at all — can be read on the web, but can’t be replied > from anywhere other than an email client — way to reply to specific users without knowing their email - users can stop all or some users to reach out directly to them - other mailman features Good to have features: — enable things like some sort of “slow mode” either for some users or group wide bbarnett 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [–] So Topicbox is annoying to use, overengineered and just plain aggravating? Aeolun 2 days ago | root | parent | next [–] Did you confuse Slack with Teams? ceejayoz 2 days ago | root | parent | prev | next [–] Is this an actual evaluation of Topicbox, or just an uncharitable dunk? jsjohnst 2 days ago | root | parent | next [–] I believe it was a reply to GP’s analogy of Slack vs IRC. bbarnett 2 days ago | root | parent | next [–] Yes, have not used topicbox, just hate slack. And slackers. And even slacks. mdasen 2 days ago | prev | next [–] I have to agree with a bunch of what kxrm said. Email can be hard and I think paying for an MTA probably wouldn't work for a site that allows third-party users to send messages. Paid MTAs don't generally want to be sending mail that you're relaying on behalf of untrusted (or only semi-trusted) users. I think Discourse might be something to look at (https://www.discourse.org). I don't know enough to really offer a great recommendation here, but they offer hosted/paid plans with a pretty good email limits. I think it would allow your users the ability to customize how they received emails and you can reply by email so it can keep the mailing-list-style feeling going. Plus, it's open-source so you could always self-host if you wanted. I think Jeff Atwood (Coding Horror), Sam Saffron, and Robin Ward are all pretty well-respected in the community. Civilized Discourse Construction Kit, Inc. seems to be a company looking to make something nice in the world (rather than take it over). They make their money as a hosting company and what they host is open source. A lot of people are using Discourse so it wouldn't be blazing new trails. I don't know what your budget is or how many people you have on your mailing list and how much email volume there is, but their hosted prices seem pretty reasonable and they seem to be trying to create a nice business. kxrm noted Google Groups, but one thing I'd bring up is whether Google Groups is accessible in China. It might be, but you did say "globally accessible" and it seems like there could be a decent likelihood that Google Groups could get blocked in China in the future (even if it's accessible today). I guess you also noted that not everyone has access to Google. Discourse seems like something they could host, you could use your own subdomain, and could always choose to host it yourself. For some, they might enjoy the web interface. Others can probably just interact over email (again, I don't have a huge amount of experience with Discourse so you'd want to verify it works how you want it to). It seems like it would offer a nice blend of modernity while still offering and email-based flow for those that want that. 2 points by srkirk 2 days ago | parent | next [–] Hello mdasen, Thanks for your input. Self-hosting is pretty much what the owner (Jan Labanowski) has been doing so far, with all the accompanying problems noted by yourself and kxrm. I'm just a long-time CCL.net subscriber and not the owner. As my post here mentions, I'll grab the content of this thread in a while and repost back to the CCL.net mailing list. annagrigoryan2 2 days ago | prev | next [–] Circle.so can be a good alternative I think. They are marketing themselves towards content and course creators, however the structure of their community is geared towards creating long discussions, and long form writing. I'm a member of a neuroscience community hosted on circle, it works great. as a cherry on top you can host it on your own website, and change the appearance. the only con i see is the pricing. gioele 2 days ago | prev | next [–] MailmanLists is a valid service run by competent people: https://www.mailmanlists.net/ They provide plain good ol' GNU Mailman lists. You can bring your own domain or subdomain. They also have a good handle on privacy issues (GDPR requests and so on). kxrm 2 days ago | prev | next [–] Tough to really answer as each has it's advantages and disadvantages. I value data ownership so I will always lean towards self-hosting, but that isn't always practical as we are talking about a community, not one person or even a small group of highly technical users. Maintaining reliable access to your user's email will be a constant source of frustration. The reality is, email is old, and fragile and the last 15+ years companies have spent enormous amounts of energy reducing spam. They have also been consolidating the space of who is a trusted sender. So unless you have a large set of users who are willing to fight spam blockers, a willing moderation team able to handle communication problems between your list and sometimes unresponsive postmasters, you might not want to continue to rely on this. I maintain a small web forum and I have to constantly monitor my logs and be in contact with email postmasters because I use email verification for the registration process. Even still, emails from my board end up in spam boxes. You could forego email verification of your web forum and use moderator verification instead if your group isn't large or if there is some other way to verify your users. However, now communication has become more active rather than passive, so this might not be something that is compatible with your user base. As they will need to remember to go somewhere to catch the latest messages without some sort of reminder or notification via email. Going to Google Groups or another hosted email system will massively remove a lot of these administrative headaches. These companies are places your users are probably already spending a lot of time, they also are a trusted sender by most postmasters so you will see good receive rates, but now you are tying your fate to that of company who's interest might not be aligned with yours or who may end up changing the rules or taking away the service you have begun to rely on for communication. You could go with a hybrid approach, pay for an SMTP service and funnel your email through their system, but I have found that unless you have extremely low volume this is unreliable for free, so you should be prepared to pay for this service and get a dedicated IP so that you have some control over the IP's status on blocklists. Utilizing other social media should be the lowest on the list of options, LinkedIn, Facebook, etc. This is really not that different than just hosting a forum, however if your user base spends a lot of time on these platforms or relies on them for other uses, then this point would be moot. However, as with the Google Groups option, you are now tying your community to a company that might not have their interests aligned with yours. Good luck in your search. 1 point by srkirk 2 days ago | parent | next [–] Thanks for your input, kxrm. CCL.net is a one-man operation and the owner (Jan Labanowski) has been running it for many years and has seen many if not all of the problems you mention. user_named 2 days ago | prev | next [–] Does it need to be a mailing list? You can set up a messageboard using discourse.org for free as you are a non-profit. ========== -- Prof. Steven R. Kirk (steven.kirk(a)cantab.net, suwen(a)hunnu.edu.cn) 100 Talents of Hunan Award Recipient College of Chemistry and Chemical Engineering, Hunan Normal University 36 Lushan Road, Changsha 410081, Hunan Province, P.R. China Website: http://www.beaconresearch.org orcid.org/0000-0002-0462-6962