Re: CCL: Negative Barrier Height

Dear Amy,

There are some differences between low pressure gas phase react= ions and typical solvent or high pressure gas phase systems. In the first, = there is low possibility of relaxation of the reactant-complex state, and t= hus without energy dissipation of the system the reaction may be considered= barrierless.

In typical situations the reactant-com= plex intermediate can relax by collisions, so the barrier will indeed be 10= kcal/mol. Now, if we have several elementary steps, the overall barrier wi= ll not (necessarily) be the barrier of the elementary step with bigger acti= vation energy. For instance in a reaction with energies as:

I1 &nb= sp; 0.

TS1 10.

I2 5.

TS2 15.

Prod. -10.

the overall barrier will be 15 (= > from I1 to TS2), as I1 and I2 are in quasi-equilibrium.

Best,

Sebastian

<= /span>

From:<= /b> Amy J Austin docronindaemon|-|gmail.com <owner-chemistry*o*ccl.net>=
To: "Kozuch, Sebastia= n " <kozuchs*o*yahoo.com>
Sent:= Tuesday, August 7, 2012 6:43 PM
Subject: CCL: Negative Barrier Height

Sent to CCL by: "Amy J Austin" [docronindaemon]*[gmail.com]
=

Greetings Marcel,

I agree with you, but want to ask a relate= d question of my own on the terminology. I haven't heard of subtracting the= TS energy from the reactants if the TS is for an elementary step... Musn't= one calculate the barrier height from the Reactant-Complex? Since the over= all rate of reaction is defined to be that of the largest barrier, and ther= e is only one barrier for this case, then I would have said the overall rat= e was 10 kcal/mol. I was confused about using the term central barrier.
Thanks for clarifying,

Amy

> "Mar= cel Swart marcel.swart[A]icrea.cat" wrote:
>
> Sent to CCL by: Marcel Swart [marcel.swart~!~icrea.cat]
>
> --Appl= e-Mail=3D_053B1DAE-349F-4132-8281-8589D9BD5F1B
> Content-Transfer-Enc= oding: quoted-printable
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> &nb= sp; charset=3Diso-8859-1
>
> Your comment is nonsense.> A simple explanation may help; given below are energies,
> obt= ained in some way (experiment, theory), and with arbitrary
> units (a= lthough for argument sake you may define them as kcal/mol).
>
>= ; Reactants 0.0
> Reactant-Complex -15.0
> TS -5.0
>= ; Product -30.0
>
> No worries here, everything well defined, = and completely according
> to chemical principles.=3D20
> Howev= er, one has a negative (overall) barrier height!!
>
> Compared= to the Reactant-Complex of course one has a positive barrier,
> but = not with respect to infinitely separated reactants. Therefore, one =3D
> should
> be careful and always mention if it is an overa= ll barrier (w.r.t. =3D
> Reactants),
> or a central barrier (w.= r.t. Reactant-Complex).
>
> This behaviour with an initial (va= n der Waals, hydrogen-bonded, =3D
> ion-dipole)
> complex is no= t uncommon. Just have a look at Sn2 reactions...
>
> Marcel>
> On 07-Aug-2012, at 9:15 , "Dillen, Jan jlmd(~)sun.ac.za =3D<= br>> JLMD(~)sun.ac.za" <owner-chemistry(-)ccl.net> wrote:
> =
> >=3D20
> > Sent to CCL by: "Dillen, Jan [jlmd]![sun.ac= .za]" <JLMD]![sun.ac.za>
> >=3D20
> > Hugo,
>= >=3D20
> >>> As for your question concerning whether it = is possible to have =3D
> "negative"
> >>> reaction ba= rriers, assuming that you have indeed located the correct
> >>&= gt; transtion state, the answer is YES.
> >=3D20
> > I di= sagree with this statement, which also contradicts your own that =3D
> you need = "single imaginary ("negative") vibrational frequency (actually, =3D
>= a negative force constant) in order to say that you have found a =3D
&g= t; transition state." (Your words)
> >=3D20
> > Calling u= pon solvent effects, zero point energies, and the effect of =3D
> tem= perature are ad hoc procedures which indeed may result in a =3D
> "ne= gative" energy barrier, but only indicate that the orignal =3D
> desc= ription of the energy surface, or the apllied ad hoc corrections, =3D
&g= t; are inadequate.
> >=3D20
> > IMHO, the concept of a ne= gative energy barrier is impossible: your =3D
> minimiser should have= located it as an energy minimum.
> >=3D20
> > Jan Dillen=
>
>
> =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D
> =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D
> dr= . Marcel Swart
>
> ICREA Research Professor at
> Institut de Qu= =3DEDmica Computacional
> Universitat de Girona
>
> Facu= ltat de Ci=3DE8ncies
> Campus Montilivi
> 17071 Girona
> = Catalunya (Spain)
>
> tel
> +34-972-418861
> fax> +34-972-418356
> e-mail
> marcel.swart(-)icrea.cat
&g= t; marcel.swart(-)udg.edu
> web
> http://www.marcelswart.eu
>
> = vCard
> addressbook://www.marcelswart.eu/MSwart.vcf
> =3D3D=3D3= D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3= D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
> =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D
>
>
>
>
> = --Apple-Mail=3D_053B1DAE-349F-4132-8281-8589D9BD5F1B
> Content-Transf= er-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Content-Type: text/html;
> &nbs= p; charset=3Diso-8859-1
>
> <html><head><meta http-equiv=3D3D"Content-Type" content=3D3= D"text/html =3D
> charset=3D3Diso-8859-1"></head><body st= yle=3D3D"word-wrap: break-word; =3D
> -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webk= it-line-break: after-white-space; ">Your =3D
> comment is nonsense= .<div>A simple explanation may help; given below are =3D
> ener= gies,</div><div>obtained in some way (experiment, theory), and = with =3D
> arbitrary</div><div>units (although for argume= nt sake you may define =3D
> them as kcal/mol).</div><div>= ;<br></div><div>Reactants =3D
> 0.0</div><= div>Reactant-Complex -15.0</div><div>TS =3D
> &nbs= p;-5.0</div><div>Product -30.0</div><div><br>= </div><div>No worries =3D
> here, everything well defined= , and completely according</div><div>to =3D
> chemical principles. </div><div><b>However, one has a ne= gative =3D
> (overall) barrier height!!</b></div><div&= gt;<br></div><div>Compared to the =3D
> Reactant-Co= mplex of course one has a positive barrier,</div><div>but not = =3D
> with respect to infinitely separated reactants. Therefore, one = =3D
> should</div><div>be careful and always mention if i= t is an =3D
> <u>overall</u> barrier (w.r.t. Reactants),&= lt;/div><div>or a <u>central</u> =3D
> barrier (= w.r.t. Reactant-Complex).</div><div><br></div><d= iv>This =3D
> behaviour with an initial (van der Waals, hydrogen-b= onded, =3D
> ion-dipole)</div><div>complex is no= t uncommon. Just have a look at =3D
> Sn2 =3D
> reactions...</div><div><br></div><div>Marcel= </div><div><br></div><div><div=3D
> = ><div>On 07-Aug-2012, at 9:15 , "Dillen, Jan jlmd(~)sun.ac.za =3D<= br>> JLMD(~)sun.ac.za" <<a =3D
> href=3D3D"mailto:owner-= chemistry(-)ccl.net">owner-chemistry(-)ccl.net</a>> =3D
= > wrote:</div><br class=3D3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><= blockquote =3D
> type=3D3D"cite"><br>Sent to CCL by: "Dillen= , Jan [jlmd]![sun.ac.za]" =3D
> <JLMD]![sun.ac.za><b= r><br>Hugo,<br><br><blockquote =3D
> type=3D3= D"cite"><blockquote type=3D3D"cite">As for your question concernin= g =3D
> whether it is possible to have "negative"<br>reaction b= arriers, assuming =3D
> that you have indeed located the correct<b= r>transtion state, the answer =3D
> is YES.<br></blockquote></blockquote><br>I disagree w= ith this statement, =3D
> which also contradicts your own that you ne= ed "single imaginary =3D
> ("negative") vibrational frequency (actual= ly, a negative force constant) =3D
> in order to say that you have fo= und a transition state." (Your =3D
> words)<br><br>Callin= g upon solvent effects, zero point energies, and the =3D
> effect of = temperature are ad hoc procedures which indeed may result in a =3D
> = "negative" energy barrier, but only indicate that the orignal =3D
> d= escription of the energy surface, or the apllied ad hoc corrections, =3D> are inadequate.<br><br>IMHO, the concept of a negative en= ergy barrier is =3D
> impossible: your minimiser should have located = it as an energy =3D
> minimum.<br><br>Jan Dillen<br>= ;</blockquote></div><br><div =3D
> apple-content-edited=3D3D"true">
> <span class=3D3D"Apple-styl= e-span" style=3D3D"border-collapse: separate; =3D
> border-spacing: 0= px; "><span class=3D3D"Apple-style-span" =3D
> style=3D3D"borde= r-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =3D
> Helveti= ca; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =3D
> norm= al; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =3D
> te= xt-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =3D
>= white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =3D
> -webkit-bor= der-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =3D
> 0= px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =3D=
> auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><= span =3D
> class=3D3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D3D"border-collapse: s= eparate; color: =3D
> rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-styl= e: normal; font-variant: =3D
> normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-heig= ht: =3D
> normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: = 0px; =3D
> text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word= -spacing: 0px; =3D
> -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-= border-vertical-spacing: =3D
> 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effec= t: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =3D
> auto; -webkit-text-stroke-wi= dth: 0px; font-size: medium; "><br =3D
> class=3D3D"Apple-inter= change-newline">=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= =3D3D=3D3D=3D
> =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D<br>dr. =3D<= br>> Marcel Swart<br><br>ICREA Research Professor at<br&g= t;Institut de Qu=3DEDmica =3D
> Computacional<br>Universitat de= Girona<br><br>Facultat de =3D
> Ci=3DE8ncies<br>Ca= mpus Montilivi<br>17071 Girona<br>Catalunya =3D
> (Spain)<br><br>tel<br>+34-972-418861<br>fax<br&= gt;+34-972-418356<br>e-mail<br=3D
> ><a =3D
> hr= ef=3D3D"mailto:marcel.swart(-)icrea.cat">marcel.swart(-)icrea.cat</a&= gt;<br>marce=3D
> l.swart(-)udg.edu<br>web<br>http://www.marcelswart.= eu</span></span><div><br>=3D
> <div>= ;<span class=3D3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D3D"border-collapse: =3D
&= gt; separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: =3D<= br>> normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: = =3D
> normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-au= to; =3D
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> -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: =3D> auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><spa= n =3D
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> ">vCard<= ;/span></span></div><div><span class=3D3D"Apple-sty= le-span" =3D
> style=3D3D"border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0,= 0); font-family: =3D
> Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weig= ht: =3D
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> white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =3D=
> -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-sp= acing: =3D
> 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-t= ext-size-adjust: =3D
> auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-siz= e: medium; "><span =3D
> class=3D3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D3= D"border-collapse: separate; color: =3D
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> normal; orphans= : 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; =3D
> text-transform= : none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =3D
> -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: = =3D
> 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-siz= e-adjust: =3D
> auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medi= um; "><a =3D
> href=3D3D"addressbook://www.marcelswart.eu/MSwar= t.vcf">addressbook://www.mar=3D
> celswart.eu/MSwart.vcf</a>= <br>=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D= =3D3D=3D3D=3D
> =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D= 3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D</span><div><= b=3D
> r></div></span></div></div></spa= n><br class=3D3D"Apple-interchange-newline">=3D
>
> &= lt;/div>
> <br></div></body></html>=3D
= >
> --Apple-Mail=3D_053B1DAE-349F-4132-8281-8589D9BD5F1B--
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---708006529-221289968-1344361465=:93611-- From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Tue Aug 7 15:37:01 2012 From: "Jim Kress ccl_nospam:_:kressworks.com" To: CCL Subject: CCL: Apologies... the article I read was in the NYT, not CCL, but the issue is still valid... Message-Id: <-47343-120807095321-8342-uJ8whunyHaJgTKLcq1f0qg()server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: "Jim Kress" Content-Language: en-us Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005A_01CD7482.709F9710" Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 09:53:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: "Jim Kress" [ccl_nospam]|[kressworks.com] This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01CD7482.709F9710 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps a solution to this conundrum is differentiating between applied mathematics and "pure" mathematics. I've always found that mathematics taught in an application environment (e.g. the recent NanoHub course on Fundamentals of Nanoelectronics) is much easier to absorb and apply than that taught in splendid isolation where there is no connection to the real world. Jim > From: owner-chemistry+ccl_nospam==kressworks.com .. ccl.net [mailto:owner-chemistry+ccl_nospam==kressworks.com .. ccl.net] On Behalf Of Bradley Welch bwelch5**slu.edu Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 12:21 AM To: Kress, Jim Subject: CCL: Apologies... the article I read was in the NYT, not CCL, but the issue is still valid... I've had a math course taught in the chemistry department. It was probably more worthwhile than the separate linear algebra and differential equations courses I took. It got straight to the point with connecting concepts to their chemistry ones. Admittedly there are other issues at work when people struggle at Physical Chemistry. One of that I think is up until that point, deriving is something your chemistry student has done little of. Your average physics student by their junior year has probably has had modern physics, classical mechanics, and other derivation heavy courses by the time they get to quantum mechanics, statistical thermo, etc. On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 7:58 PM, Salomon Turgman Cohen sturgman.:.gmail.com wrote: Sent to CCL by: Salomon Turgman Cohen [sturgman()gmail.com] Dear All, My memories of the required Physical Chemistry course for the cheme degree are still fresh in my memory. I remember struggling with some of the tools and missing their relation to previous work in math classes. Eventually, some of us just got it. Perhaps, a piece of this puzzle is teaching department specific math classes (at higher costs obviously) where mathematical concepts are connected immediately to future topics to be taught in the (chemistry) field. Salomon On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Amy J Austin docronindaemon(-)gmail.com wrote: > > Sent to CCL by: "Amy J Austin" [docronindaemon- -gmail.com] > > Hi John, > > I agree with you that Chemistry students should have to take more Mathematics as a prerequisite for the major. Further, I believe the lack of these required courses places undergraduate students lacking an education in higher level Mathematics at a disadvantage. Imagine learning the concepts involved in Physical Chemistry or Theoretical chemistry if one simultaneously struggles with the tools involved. > > A descriptive Chemist wouldn't need the same command of Mathematics as a Physical/Theoretical Chemist. Then again, how would an undergraduate student know if they had an interest in the latter without the fundamental Mathematical knowledge to master the material. > > > Best, > > Amy > > > > > > > > >> "John McKelvey jmmckel]*[gmail.com" wrote: >> >> Sent to CCL by: John McKelvey [jmmckel.]_[.gmail.com] >> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/opinion/sunday/is-algebra-necessary.html?W T.mc_id=NYT-E-I-NYT-E-AT-0801-L14 &nl=el >> >> -- >> John McKelvey >> 10819 Middleford Pl >> Ft Wayne, IN 46818 >> 260-489-2160 >> jmmckel]_[gmail.com> > -- Salomon Turgman Cohen Postdoctoral Associate Cornell University (919) 341-9650
Perhaps a solution to this conundrum is differentiating between = applied mathematics and “pure” mathematics. I’ve = always found that mathematics taught in an application environment (e.g. = the recent NanoHub course on Fundamentals of Nanoelectronics) is much = easier to absorb and apply than that taught in splendid isolation where = there is no connection to the real world.

Jim

From:= = owner-chemistry+ccl_nospam=3D=3Dkressworks.com .. ccl.net = [mailto:owner-chemistry+ccl_nospam=3D=3Dkressworks.com .. ccl.net] On = Behalf Of Bradley Welch bwelch5**slu.edu
Sent: Tuesday, = August 07, 2012 12:21 AM
To: Kress, Jim =
Subject: CCL: Apologies... the article I read was in = the NYT, not CCL, but the issue is still = valid...

I've had a math course taught in the = chemistry department. It was probably more worthwhile than the separate = linear algebra and differential equations courses I took. It got = straight to the point with connecting concepts to their chemistry ones. = Admittedly there are other issues at work when people struggle at = Physical Chemistry. One of that I think is up until that point, deriving = is something your chemistry student has done little of. Your average = physics student by their junior year has probably has had modern = physics, classical mechanics, and other derivation heavy courses by the = time they get to quantum mechanics, statistical thermo, etc. =
On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 7:58 PM, = Salomon Turgman Cohen sturgman.:.gmail.com <owner-chemistry[]ccl.net> = wrote:

Sent to CCL by: Salomon Turgman Cohen = [sturgman()gmail.com]
Dear All,
My = memories of the required Physical Chemistry course for the
cheme = degree are still fresh in my memory. I remember struggling with
some = of the tools and missing their relation to previous work in = math
classes. Eventually, some of us just got it. Perhaps, a piece of = this
puzzle is teaching department specific math classes (at higher = costs
obviously) where mathematical concepts are connected = immediately to
future topics to be taught in the (chemistry) = field.

Salomon

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Amy J = Austin
docronindaemon(-)gmail.com <owner-chemistry- -ccl.net> = wrote:
>
> Sent to CCL by: "Amy J Austin" = [docronindaemon- -gmail.com]
>
> Hi = John,
>
> I agree with you that Chemistry students should = have to take more Mathematics as a prerequisite for the major. Further, = I believe the lack of these required courses places undergraduate = students lacking an education in higher level Mathematics at a = disadvantage. Imagine learning the concepts involved in Physical = Chemistry or Theoretical chemistry if one simultaneously struggles with = the tools involved.
>
> A descriptive Chemist wouldn't need = the same command of Mathematics as a Physical/Theoretical Chemist. Then = again, how would an undergraduate student know if they had an interest = in the latter without the fundamental Mathematical knowledge to master = the material.
>
>
> Best,
>
> = Amy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
&g= t;> "John McKelvey jmmckel]*[gmail.com" = wrote:
>>
>> Sent to CCL by: John McKelvey = [jmmckel.]_[.gmail.com]
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/opinion/sunday/is-alg= ebra-necessary.html?WT.mc_id=3DNYT-E-I-NYT-E-AT-0801-L14&nl=3Del<= br>>>
>> --
>> John McKelvey
>> 10819 = Middleford Pl
>> Ft Wayne, IN 46818
>> 260-489-2160
>> jmmckel]_[gmail.com>
>

--
Salomon = Turgman Cohen
Postdoctoral Associate
Cornell University
(919) 341-9650

-=3D = This is automatically added to each message by the mailing script = =3D-<br

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------=_NextPart_000_005A_01CD7482.709F9710-- From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Tue Aug 7 16:12:01 2012 From: "Jesse Gordon jesse.gordon/a\dotmatics.com" To: CCL Subject: CCL: Is algebra necessary? Message-Id: <-47344-120807104058-3561-NTfR2Sm4VYtRZcv/tCiYjw===server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: Jesse Gordon Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 10:40:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: Jesse Gordon [jesse.gordon . dotmatics.com] I've been a math tutor for 25 years, at the high school and undergraduate level, as a sideline to my day job as a chemoinformatician. While I empathize with the sorry state of high school math in Irene's posting and in the NY Times article, I think we as scientists should have a different philosophy: mine is "Math teachers should hate math as much as their students do." We can bemoan that students are bad at math -- but mostly we should recognize that algebra is really NOT very useful to most people (and even less so trigonometry and calculus!) and try to get students to have some fun with it anyway. I tell my students "I hate math" and that I'm a better teacher than those who love math, because I can empathize with students who hate math too. I tell them, too, that at the end of my first calculus class I reveled in the relief of repeating, "That is the LAST math class I will EVER take!" but then I said that same phrase after second semester calculus; and that same phrase again after each semester of advanced statistics; and then that same phrase AGAIN after PChem-associated math. I suggest to students that they say it as often as I did, because it helped me survive repeated self-inflicted torture. But I also tell students that I made up a song, "My Boy Knows Algebra", and I perform the little dance step I made up to go with it, when my son completed his first algebra homework in 8th grade. In other words, my students know I'm a nerd, and I try to make math fun despite that it's distasteful to them.. I've been stumped, like Irene below, by math methods galore (I most often teach SAT and GRE prep, which means I hop around many schools). But the teaching method isn't as important as having a method that the student is comfortable with -- I try to teach mnemonics, the goofier the better (google "PEMDAS," e.g.), and I use words like "derivate" as a verb when teaching calculus. My methodological vindication is best summarized by my second semester calculus student who was flunking out when he came to me for tutoring, but by the time he took his midterm exam he had improved so much that the professor made him show his work live because he was suspected of cheating. My student demonstrated, "Well, to derivate fractions, the part on top gets derivated first because the one on the bottom is tired from the trip to the top..." the professor muttered disapproval of his terminology but could not question that my student got every single problem right, even under inspection. Newton had a different methof for calculus than Leibniz -- who cares what the method is? -- only the result matters. As to the subject question, yes, math students ask me that all the time, and I answer, "No, it isn't REALLY necessary in real life, but it teaches you how to think. In the Olden Days, they taught ancient Latin and Greek for the same purpose -- so be thankful you get to learn something that at least helps you balance your checkbook!" The NY Times article is simply the wrong attitude -- it advocates learning math for its utility, when we should focus on what the students focus on -- getting through the torture. I do also tell students that math MIGHT be useful, if they carefullly choose their future vocation -- I get to use and explain 4-parameter logistic curve-fitting and Kurtosis values and other statistical gobbledygook as part of my daily job -- but I had to choose very carefully in order to get there. My point to my students is, they too should have that choice -- and algebra, statistics, and calculus are the way to get there. ===================================== Jesse Gordon Application Scientist Dotmatics Inc. 400 West Cummings Park #5450, Woburn MA 01801 T: +1 781-305-3114 M: +1-617-320-6989 Email: jesse.gordon+/-dotmatics.com Skype: jessegordon ====================================== Dotmatics Providing Informatics for Everyone * August 19-21, 2012, 244th ACS Meeting #1708, Philadelphia PA USA * August 21, 2012 - Triangle Biotech Research Symposium NC Biotechnology Center, RTP, NC * September 11-13, 2012 - Bio-IT World Cloud Summit Hotel Kabuki, SF, CA * September 30, 2012 to October 3, 2012 - ACS Northeast Regional, Rochester, NY * October 28, 2012 to November 2, 2012 - 2012 AIChE Annual Meeting, Pittsburgh, PA On 6 August 2012 15:33, Irene Newhouse einew|*|hotmail.com wrote: > > Sent to CCL by: "Irene Newhouse" [einew-*-hotmail.com] > The high failure rates in math aren't due to so many people being unable to learn math. They're due to the sorry state of math teaching. A large part of the problem is that education is all too subject to fads, and that teachers aren't given enough training in the method du jour. I say this as someone who has regularly tutored students in grades 1-12 in math since 2006. I have had to decode math homework for 3rd graders because their tutors, who passed algebra, geometry & algebra II in their day, had no clue. It took the extra math that comes with a Ph D in physical chemistry to be able to wrap my head around the assignments in the absence of training in the approach. When there are such abrupt changes in educational practice, not even parents who did well in school in their day are able to help their children with homework. > > The math tutor in this area for whom I have the utmost respect has taught an autistic student whose public high school deemed incapable of getting a diploma, enough math to pass the Compass test to the Math 100 level for the local community college. He has also taken another autistic student, who tested at grade 4 math before tutoring, to grade 7 math, **in one summer**, and summer vacation around here is only 6 weeks - modified year-round schedule. Both sets of tests were done by the student's public school, so they're about as objective as you can get. The student's parents told him the results caused quite a stir at school. He regularly teaches kids under 10 how to factor quadratic equations & other similar algebra concepts. He works with the kids who come to him, usually because they're struggling in math at school, not with child prodigies. > > On the other hand, there are still many occupations that don't require one to be able to do upper level high school math, and it's been silly to try to merge what in my day were the vocational, business, and academic high school tracks into one curriculum that doesn't serve anybody particularly well. > > A lifetime ago, my first boss explained that he had very competent primary & high school teachers because in his day, a woman who wanted a career had pretty much only 3 choices - teacher, nurse, or secretary. Now that women had more choice, the most intelligent young women were no longer choosing teaching, which, as a 'woman's job' was historically grossly underpaid. He ended by stating that for about 150 years, the US had a pretty good general education system only because it was solidly based on the exploitation of the brightest American women. Since the end of that era, we've been getting the teachers we've been paying for all along. Around here, experienced condo cleaners get the same or higher wages as starting teachers, so it's not going to be easy to solve the problem. > > Irene Newhouse > > Sent to CCL by: Salomon Turgman Cohen [sturgman()gmail.com] Dear All, My memories of the required Physical Chemistry course for the cheme degree are still fresh in my memory. I remember struggling with some of the tools and missing their relation to previous work in math classes. Eventually, some of us just got it. Perhaps, a piece of this puzzle is teaching department specific math classes (at higher costs obviously) where mathematical concepts are connected immediately to future topics to be taught in the (chemistry) field. Salomon On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Amy J Austin docronindaemon(-)gmail.com wrote: > > Sent to CCL by: "Amy J Austin" [docronindaemon- -gmail.com] > > Hi John, > > I agree with you that Chemistry students should have to take more Mathematics as a prerequisite for the major. Further, I believe the lack of these required courses places undergraduate students lacking an education in higher level Mathematics at a disadvantage. Imagine learning the concepts involved in Physical Chemistry or Theoretical chemistry if one simultaneously struggles with the tools involved. > > A descriptive Chemist wouldn't need the same command of Mathematics as a Physical/Theoretical Chemist. Then again, how would an undergraduate student know if they had an interest in the latter without the fundamental Mathematical knowledge to master the material. > > > Best, > > Amy > -- Disclaimer: This electronic mail and its attachments are intended solely for the person(s) to whom they are addressed and contain information which is confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure, except for the purpose for which they are intended. Dissemination, distribution, or reproduction by anyone other than the intended recipients is prohibited and may be illegal. If you are not an intended recipient, please immediately inform the sender and return the electronic mail and its attachments and destroy any copies which may be in your possession. Dotmatics Limited screens electronic mails for viruses but does not warrant that this electronic mail is free of any viruses. Dotmatics Limited accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this electronic mail. Dotmatics Limited is registered in England & Wales No. 5614524 with offices at The Old Monastery, Windhill, Bishops Stortford, Herts, CM23 2ND, UK. From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Tue Aug 7 16:47:01 2012 From: "Fedor Goumans goumans^^scm.com" To: CCL Subject: CCL: Negative Barrier Height Message-Id: <-47345-120807110457-14802-Leig7+kJMImE33FdM0VFwg*|*server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: "Fedor Goumans" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 17:04:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: "Fedor Goumans" [goumans]^[scm.com] Further to the 'toy system' by Marcel - there actually exist system that have an observed negative activation energy at low temperatures. These negative activation energies indeed ultimately result from an entrance channel complex and the kinetic behaviour across a large temperature range can be well described by the beautiful theoretical work by Klippenstein, Georgievskii and their coworkers in their 'two transition state model'. Note that there must exist a second TS as well (the "outer transition state") for complex formation, which is treated with long-range TST in the two transition state model. e.g.: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/jp058041a Fedor > From: Marcel Swart marcel.swart[A]icrea.cat Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 3:53 PM To: Goumans, Fedor Subject: CCL: Negative Barrier Height Your comment is nonsense. A simple explanation may help; given below are energies, obtained in some way (experiment, theory), and with arbitrary units (although for argument sake you may define them as kcal/mol). Reactants 0.0 Reactant-Complex -15.0 TS -5.0 Product -30.0 No worries here, everything well defined, and completely according to chemical principles. However, one has a negative (overall) barrier height!! Compared to the Reactant-Complex of course one has a positive barrier, but not with respect to infinitely separated reactants. Therefore, one should be careful and always mention if it is an overall barrier (w.r.t. Reactants), or a central barrier (w.r.t. Reactant-Complex). This behaviour with an initial (van der Waals, hydrogen-bonded, ion-dipole) complex is not uncommon. Just have a look at Sn2 reactions... Marcel On 07-Aug-2012, at 9:15 , "Dillen, Jan jlmd(~)sun.ac.za JLMD(~)sun.ac.za" wrote: Sent to CCL by: "Dillen, Jan [jlmd]![sun.ac.za]" Hugo, As for your question concerning whether it is possible to have "negative" reaction barriers, assuming that you have indeed located the correct transtion state, the answer is YES. I disagree with this statement, which also contradicts your own that you need "single imaginary ("negative") vibrational frequency (actually, a negative force constant) in order to say that you have found a transition state." (Your words) Calling upon solvent effects, zero point energies, and the effect of temperature are ad hoc procedures which indeed may result in a "negative" energy barrier, but only indicate that the orignal description of the energy surface, or the apllied ad hoc corrections, are inadequate. IMHO, the concept of a negative energy barrier is impossible: your minimiser should have located it as an energy minimum. Jan Dillen =================================== dr. Marcel Swart ICREA Research Professor at Institut de Qu�mica Computacional Universitat de Girona Facultat de Ci�ncies Campus Montilivi 17071 Girona Catalunya (Spain) tel +34-972-418861 fax +34-972-418356 e-mail marcel.swart]-[icrea.cat marcel.swart]-[udg.edu web http://www.marcelswart.eu vCard addressbook://www.marcelswart.eu/MSwart.vcf =================================== From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Tue Aug 7 17:22:00 2012 From: "Dillen, Jan jlmd:sun.ac.za JLMD:sun.ac.za" To: CCL Subject: CCL: Negative Barrier Height Message-Id: <-47346-120807110709-15579-wIt+MJArtDZOy/rZCx+OLA * server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: "Dillen, Jan " Content-Language: en-ZA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 15:06:44 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: "Dillen, Jan [jlmd : sun.ac.za]" Marcel Your reactant in the example cannot be an energy minimum. Both reactants and products are energy minima. This is what the discussion was about, unless I misunderstood. Jan Dillen ________________________________________ > From: owner-chemistry+jlmd==sun.ac.za[A]ccl.net [owner-chemistry+jlmd==sun.ac.za[A]ccl.net] on behalf of Marcel Swart marcel.swart[A]icrea.cat [owner-chemistry[A]ccl.net] Sent: 07 August 2012 03:53 PM To: Dillen, Jan Subject: CCL: Negative Barrier Height Your comment is nonsense. A simple explanation may help; given below are energies, obtained in some way (experiment, theory), and with arbitrary units (although for argument sake you may define them as kcal/mol). Reactants 0.0 Reactant-Complex -15.0 TS -5.0 Product -30.0 No worries here, everything well defined, and completely according to chemical principles. However, one has a negative (overall) barrier height!! Compared to the Reactant-Complex of course one has a positive barrier, but not with respect to infinitely separated reactants. Therefore, one should be careful and always mention if it is an overall barrier (w.r.t. Reactants), or a central barrier (w.r.t. Reactant-Complex). This behaviour with an initial (van der Waals, hydrogen-bonded, ion-dipole) complex is not uncommon. Just have a look at Sn2 reactions... Marcel On 07-Aug-2012, at 9:15 , "Dillen, Jan jlmd(~)sun.ac.za JLMD(~)sun.ac.za" > wrote: Sent to CCL by: "Dillen, Jan [jlmd]![sun.ac.za]" Hugo, As for your question concerning whether it is possible to have "negative" reaction barriers, assuming that you have indeed located the correct transtion state, the answer is YES. I disagree with this statement, which also contradicts your own that you need "single imaginary ("negative") vibrational frequency (actually, a negative force constant) in order to say that you have found a transition state." (Your words) Calling upon solvent effects, zero point energies, and the effect of temperature are ad hoc procedures which indeed may result in a "negative" energy barrier, but only indicate that the orignal description of the energy surface, or the apllied ad hoc corrections, are inadequate. IMHO, the concept of a negative energy barrier is impossible: your minimiser should have located it as an energy minimum. Jan Dillen ________________________________ E-pos vrywaringsklousule Hierdie e-pos mag vertroulike inligting bevat en mag regtens geprivilegeerd wees en is slegs bedoel vir die persoon aan wie dit geadresseer is. Indien u nie die bedoelde ontvanger is nie, word u hiermee in kennis gestel dat u hierdie dokument geensins mag gebruik, versprei of kopieer nie. Stel ook asseblief die sender onmiddellik per telefoon in kennis en vee die e-pos uit. Die Universiteit aanvaar nie aanspreeklikheid vir enige skade, verlies of uitgawe wat voortspruit uit hierdie e-pos en/of die oopmaak van enige lêers aangeheg by hierdie e-pos nie. E-mail disclaimer This e-mail may contain confidential information and may be legally privileged and is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that you may not use, distribute or copy this document in any manner whatsoever. Kindly also notify the sender immediately by telephone, and delete the e-mail. The University does not accept liability for any damage, loss or expense arising from this e-mail and/or accessing any files attached to this e-mail. From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Tue Aug 7 17:57:00 2012 From: "Christopher Cramer cramer-*-umn.edu" To: CCL Subject: CCL: Negative Barrier Height Message-Id: <-47347-120807145138-5823-zqPgfuMhpMuKJf8sZD/mkA]*[server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: Christopher Cramer Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 20:51:23 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Sent to CCL by: Christopher Cramer [cramer++umn.edu] Lots of passionate discussion on this topic. One is reminded of the scene from Amadeus where the Emperor says, "You are passionate, Mozart, but you do not persuade." Aw, heck, I'll take a crack. 1) Let us recall that a potential energy surface (PES) is a rather strange beast. It is a graphical representation of the electronic energy (i.e., binding of electrons to nuclei, repulsion of electrons with one another and of nuclei with one another, and electron kinetic energy) for a clamped set of nuclear positions at 0 K. While in PRINCIPLE it corresponds to a physical observable, it would be difficult to tease that observable out, because even at 0 K, molecules composed of two or more atoms have zero-point vibrational energy (ZPVE), so any accurate measure of 0 K internal energy (a thermodynamic quantity, often written "U", not electronic energy) would need to remove an accurate estimate of ZPVE to get at potential energy. 2) It would appear that some confusion in the CCL discussion arises because gas-phase chemists don't think like condensed-phase chemists and vice versa. For those used to the condensed phase, let us restrict ourselves to the "gas" phase momentarily. Actually, in a typical calculation, we use the word gas a bit loosely, as what we really have tends to be one or two molecules in a vacuum. BUT, since the definition of an ideal gas is that the molecules of the gas don't interact with one another, we could also call this the "ideal gas" phase. In that rather special phase, we effectively satisfy the thermodynamic microcanonical ensemble. In that ensemble, energy is conserved. So, if you are considering a reaction coordinate -- any coordinate -- and you compute (accurately, let us assume) that the potential energy has dropped 20 kcal/mol along some path, then perforce that 20 kcal/mol is now tied up in kinetic energy in order to PRESERVE total energy. Molecules or molecular complexes may distribute kinetic energy into translational, rotational, or vibrational modes -- that's where the 20 kcal/mol goes. Note that if you have a reaction A + B --> C in the gas phase, and it is exoergic, that does not mean that you will make any C. That is because that poor molecule C still has all the energy that was associated with A + B. Given sufficient time, it is likely to place the excess kinetic energy into the mode or modes that fragment C back into A + B and, poof, goodbye C. That is why most interstellar chemistry takes place in nebulae and dense clouds. If you can't bounce your energetic molecules C of something else (dust, ice, you name it) and transfer some kinetic energy to that other particle, you can't stabilize C. 3) Now, as Marcel Swart pointed out quite nicely, the PES may well have ion-molecule or molecule-molecule complexes for reactions like A + B --> C + D that are lower in potential energy than the infinitely separated reactants (or products). In such instance, if the TS structure is above the complex energy(ies) and below the infinitely separated asymptote(s), you might call that a negative energy "barrier". That's 100% correct. However, it's important to keep in mind the "non-thermodynamic" nature of the PES. In the dilute (ideal) gas phase, the energy is the same all along the reaction coordinate -- it is simply distributed differently into kinetic and potential energy components. If you wanted to discuss a rate of reaction, you would need some sort of kinetic theory that would typically invoke reaction flux from A + B to C + D based on densities of states associated with the energy of the colliding reactants. Noting, again, that given enough time, A + B --> C will simply go back. Happily, A + B --> C + D is allowed as one can send C and D out with more kinetic energy than A + B had, if the potential energy of C + D is lower than A + B. 4) Now, let's consider the condensed phase. In a really NICE condensed phase, the excess kinetic energy that is created as the potential energy drops along some coordinate is instantaneously drained into the surrounding, infinite, THERMAL bath. That is, we have a new thermodynamic ensemble -- e.g., NVT or NPT (number of particles, N, volume, V, pressure, P, and temperature, T). That's all very nice, but in such instances the thermodynamic quantity of interest for reaction is a free energy, not a potential energy, and entropy plays a key role. So, even if on the PES the reactants form a complex that is lower in POTENTIAL energy than the infinitely separated reactants, that does not mean that the complex is lower in FREE energy than the separated reactants. Similarly, if a transition-state structure (that is, a saddle-point geometry on the PES) is lower in electronic energy, or internal energy, or even enthalpy, that does not mean that it is lower in FREE energy. That must be assessed. 5) Finally, as Ben Ellingson (#UMNProud of former member of U of M Chemical Theory Center) effectively pointed out, there is no guarantee that the TS structure (a unique molecular geometry defined only on the PES) actually corresponds to the maximum in FREE energy along a reaction path. To find that maximum in free energy, the VARIATIONAL transition-state, one must use a technique that models the various contributions to free energy (from consideration of the electronic, translational, rotational, and vibrational partition functions -- typically using an ideal gas as a convenient model, but that's not a requirement) along a FREE energy path, not a minimum (electronic) energy path (often called an intrinsic reaction coordinate). So, the bottom line is, if you want to turn your electronic structure calculation into some sort of estimate of a RATE of reaction, you need to invoke some sort of kinetic theory. If you are in the very dilute gas phase, it may be a collision theory, if you are in the somewhat higher pressure gas phase regime, it may be RRKM theory (or analogs), if you are in the condensed phase, it may be transition-state theory or variational transition-state theory, but in all of these cases you'll need to compute quantities BEYOND the simple electronic energy. But, irrespective of your model, it certainly IS possible that your TS structure electronic energy is lower than that of infinitely separated reacting species. What is NOT possible is that a TS structure fails to have at least two minima on the PES corresponding to structures that lie at lower potential energy along the minimum energy paths defined by the normal mode having an imaginary frequency. In some cases, the two structures may be identical to within atom labeling (e.g., reaction of H + H2) and in other cases, there may be MORE than two structures (because the path downward from the TS structure bifurcates in either or both directions), but any other observation corresponds to a spurious result (perhaps because of poor numerical accuracy in the computation of the molecular force constants from which the vibrational frequencies are derived). With sincere hopes that that long screed is informative... Chris -- Christopher J. Cramer Elmore H. Northey Professor University of Minnesota Department of Chemistry 207 Pleasant St. SE Minneapolis, MN 55455-0431 -------------------------- Phone: (612) 624-0859 || FAX: (612) 626-7541 Mobile: (952) 297-2575 email: cramer_-_umn.edu twitter: _-_ChemProfCramer http://pollux.chem.umn.edu (website includes information about the textbook "Essentials of Computational Chemistry: Theories and Models, 2nd Edition") From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Tue Aug 7 18:31:00 2012 From: "Joy Ku joyku+/-stanford.edu" To: CCL Subject: CCL: OpenMM 4.1.1 release available: build and simulate MD models on GPUs Message-Id: <-47348-120807170445-21253-Meeuiruwx+L00SgORBgwGg a server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: "Joy Ku" Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 17:04:42 -0400 Sent to CCL by: "Joy Ku" [joyku!A!stanford.edu] We are pleased to announce the release of OpenMM 4.1.1. The OpenMM software package enables molecular dynamics (MD) simulations to be accelerated on high performance computer architectures, such as GPUs. Previously it was only available as a library to be integrated into other MD codes; it now also provides an application layer to run simulations and take advantage of features, such as custom forces, straight out-of-the-box. OpenMM 4.1 includes features such as: *Model building tools: You can now add hydrogen atoms, add solvent, and make other changes to your PDB file all within OpenMM. The results can immediately be used to run a simulation in OpenMM. *Custom integrators: In addition to creating custom forces, with OpenMM 4.1, you can now implement a wide range of integration methods. *Virtual sites: You can now create virtual massless particles, whose position is computed from the positions of other particles rather than from integration the equations of motions. *Support for new water models: TIP4P-E2 and TIP5P water models are now available in OpenMM. Version 4.1.1 adds a few important bug fixes. You can download the latest version from http://simtk.org/home/openmm. Click on Downloads. Interested in learning more? A free workshop on using the many features of OpenMM is being held on September 6-7, 2012. To register, visit: http://simbios.stanford.edu/MDWorkshop.htm From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Tue Aug 7 21:16:00 2012 From: "David A Mannock dmannock,+,ualberta.ca" To: CCL Subject: CCL: Is algebra necessary? Message-Id: <-47349-120807155958-32095-DWxXdiUKSO2NbKMUc7JeMQ|server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: David A Mannock Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d042a0d67e9da1e04c6b26f93 Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 13:59:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: David A Mannock [dmannock=-=ualberta.ca] --f46d042a0d67e9da1e04c6b26f93 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Irene, In the UK 40+ years ago, the division between academic and vocational schools was gradually eliminated, but now there is a movement back in the other direction because of the dumbing down of so many subjects at the advanced level. The standard for getting into Universities is no longer A or AS levels, but the Oxbridge entrance exams. Despite my lack of mathematical ability, I took A-level maths (Pure math & statistics) in 1976. As a physical chemist/biophysicist, I am now glad that I did this as it helps my ability to solve practical real world problems. What I can remember of my teachers at Swanage and Marlborough Grammar schools was their ability to generate interest in the subject matter. For me, they encouraged my initiative and encouraged me (and my classmates) to ask questions and to be creative in every direction. This became a series of lessons for me in my life. The combination of logic, instuition and creativity is not pushed as much in a lot of classrooms today, I believe. The emphasis is on kids getting through the system under their own power. I think this is why so many kids fail the more technical subjects at school today, as it is easier to not do the homework, but to sit at home playing video games. If we could get a few to realise that the basis of many of these games is vector maths, it might regenerate the missing link between technically difficult subjects and the real world. Just my 10 cents worth. Dave On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Irene Newhouse einew|*|hotmail.com < owner-chemistry * ccl.net> wrote: > > Sent to CCL by: "Irene Newhouse" [einew-*-hotmail.com] > The high failure rates in math aren't due to so many people being unable > to learn math. They're due to the sorry state of math teaching. A large > part of the problem is that education is all too subject to fads, and that > teachers aren't given enough training in the method du jour. I say this as > someone who has regularly tutored students in grades 1-12 in math since > 2006. I have had to decode math homework for 3rd graders because their > tutors, who passed algebra, geometry & algebra II in their day, had no > clue. It took the extra math that comes with a Ph D in physical chemistry > to be able to wrap my head around the assignments in the absence of > training in the approach. When there are such abrupt changes in educational > practice, not even parents who did well in school in their day are able to > help their children with homework. > > The math tutor in this area for whom I have the utmost respect has taught > an autistic student whose public high school deemed incapable of getting a > diploma, enough math to pass the Compass test to the Math 100 level for the > local community college. He has also taken another autistic student, who > tested at grade 4 math before tutoring, to grade 7 math, **in one summer**, > and summer vacation around here is only 6 weeks - modified year-round > schedule. Both sets of tests were done by the student's public school, so > they're about as objective as you can get. The student's parents told him > the results caused quite a stir at school. He regularly teaches kids under > 10 how to factor quadratic equations & other similar algebra concepts. He > works with the kids who come to him, usually because they're struggling in > math at school, not with child prodigies. > > On the other hand, there are still many occupations that don't require one > to be able to do upper level high school math, and it's been silly to try > to merge what in my day were the vocational, business, and academic high > school tracks into one curriculum that doesn't serve anybody particularly > well. > > A lifetime ago, my first boss explained that he had very competent primary > & high school teachers because in his day, a woman who wanted a career had > pretty much only 3 choices - teacher, nurse, or secretary. Now that women > had more choice, the most intelligent young women were no longer choosing > teaching, which, as a 'woman's job' was historically grossly underpaid. He > ended by stating that for about 150 years, the US had a pretty good general > education system only because it was solidly based on the exploitation of > the brightest American women. Since the end of that era, we've been getting > the teachers we've been paying for all along. Around here, experienced > condo cleaners get the same or higher wages as starting teachers, so it's > not going to be easy to solve the problem. > > Irene Newhouse> > > --f46d042a0d67e9da1e04c6b26f93 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Irene, In the UK 40+ years ago, the division between academic and vocationa= l schools was gradually eliminated, but now there is a movement back in the= other direction because of the dumbing down of so many subjects at the adv= anced level. The standard for getting into Universities is no longer A or A= S levels, but the Oxbridge entrance exams. Despite my lack of mathematical = ability, I took A-level maths (Pure math & statistics) in 1976. As a ph= ysical chemist/biophysicist, I am now glad that I did this as it helps my a= bility to solve practical real world problems. What I can remember of my te= achers at Swanage and Marlborough Grammar schools was their ability to gene= rate interest in the subject matter. For me, they encouraged my initiative = and encouraged me (and my classmates) to ask questions and to be creative i= n every direction. This became a series of lessons for me in my life. The c= ombination of logic, instuition and creativity is not pushed as much in a l= ot of classrooms today, I believe. The emphasis is on kids getting through = the system under their own power. I think this is why so many kids fail the= more technical subjects at school today, as it is easier to not do the hom= ework, but to sit at home playing video games. If we could get a few to rea= lise that the basis of many of these games is vector maths, it might regene= rate the missing link between technically difficult subjects and the real w= orld. Just my 10 cents worth. Dave

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 1:33 PM, Irene Newhou= se einew|*|hotmail.com <owner-che= mistry * ccl.net> wrote:

Sent to CCL by: "Irene =A0Newhouse" [einew-*-hotmail.com]
The high failure rates in math aren't due to so many people being unabl= e to learn math. They're due to the sorry state of math teaching. A lar= ge part of the problem is that education is all too subject to fads, and th= at teachers aren't given enough training in the method du jour. I say t= his as someone who has regularly tutored students in grades 1-12 in math si= nce 2006. I have had to decode math homework for 3rd graders because their = tutors, who passed algebra, geometry & algebra II in their day, had no = clue. It took the extra math that comes with a Ph D in physical chemistry t= o be able to wrap my head around the assignments in the absence of training= in the approach. When there are such abrupt changes in educational practic= e, not even parents who did well in school in their day are able to help th= eir children with homework.

The math tutor in this area for whom I have the utmost respect has taught a= n autistic student whose public high school deemed incapable of getting a d= iploma, enough math to pass the Compass test to the Math 100 level for the = local community college. He has also taken another autistic student, who te= sted at grade 4 math before tutoring, to grade 7 math, **in one summer**, a= nd summer vacation around here is only 6 weeks - modified year-round schedu= le. Both sets of tests were done by the student's public school, so the= y're about as objective as you can get. The student's parents told = him the results caused quite a stir at school. He regularly teaches kids un= der 10 how to factor quadratic equations & other similar algebra concep= ts. He works with the kids who come to him, usually because they're str= uggling in math at school, not with child prodigies.

On the other hand, there are still many occupations that don't require = one to be able to do upper level high school math, and it's been silly = to try to merge what in my day were the vocational, business, and academic = high school tracks into one curriculum that doesn't serve anybody parti= cularly well.

A lifetime ago, my first boss explained that he had very competent primary = & high school teachers because in his day, a woman who wanted a career = had pretty much only 3 choices =A0- teacher, nurse, or secretary. Now that = women had more choice, the most intelligent young women were no longer choo= sing teaching, which, as a 'woman's job' was historically gross= ly underpaid. He ended by stating that for about 150 years, the US had a pr= etty good general education system only because it was solidly based on the= exploitation of the brightest American women. Since the end of that era, w= e've been getting the teachers we've been paying for all along. Aro= und here, experienced condo cleaners get the same or higher wages as starti= ng teachers, so it's not going to be easy to solve the problem.

Irene Newhouse

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--f46d042a0d67e9da1e04c6b26f93-- From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Tue Aug 7 21:51:00 2012 From: "John McKelvey jmmckel++gmail.com" To: CCL Subject: CCL: Apologies... the article I read was in the NYT, not CCL, but the issue is still valid... Message-Id: <-47350-120807164232-2757-flvDCICoSzbki9b1gOXkzg|,|server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: John McKelvey Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 16:42:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: John McKelvey [jmmckel**gmail.com] Amy, I am most concerned with dis-abilities in analytical thinking and problem solving at the Freshman level in general. i.e. the question: 1.0/0.49 = ~ ? ans: Don't know. I agree that science majors should get to college/Univ should already with higher level math skills. John On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Amy J Austin docronindaemon(-)gmail.com wrote: > > Sent to CCL by: "Amy J Austin" [docronindaemon- -gmail.com] > > Hi John, > > I agree with you that Chemistry students should have to take more Mathematics as a prerequisite for the major. Further, I believe the lack of these required courses places undergraduate students lacking an education in higher level Mathematics at a disadvantage. Imagine learning the concepts involved in Physical Chemistry or Theoretical chemistry if one simultaneously struggles with the tools involved. > > A descriptive Chemist wouldn't need the same command of Mathematics as a Physical/Theoretical Chemist. Then again, how would an undergraduate student know if they had an interest in the latter without the fundamental Mathematical knowledge to master the material. > > > Best, > > Amy > > > > > > > > >> "John McKelvey jmmckel]*[gmail.com" wrote: >> >> Sent to CCL by: John McKelvey [jmmckel.]_[.gmail.com] >> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/opinion/sunday/is-algebra-necessary.html?WT.mc_id=NYT-E-I-NYT-E-AT-0801-L14&nl=el >> >> -- >> John McKelvey >> 10819 Middleford Pl >> Ft Wayne, IN 46818 >> 260-489-2160 >> jmmckel]_[gmail.com> > -- John McKelvey 10819 Middleford Pl Ft Wayne, IN 46818 260-489-2160 jmmckel . gmail.com From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Tue Aug 7 22:26:01 2012 From: "John McKelvey jmmckel]~[gmail.com" To: CCL Subject: CCL: Apologies... the article I read was in the NYT, not CCL, but the issue is still valid... Message-Id: <-47351-120807165411-12492-E5Vc75m/92Y/cG2LnWzvaA%server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: John McKelvey Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 16:54:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: John McKelvey [jmmckel[A]gmail.com] I'll try to give a simple example that demonstrates my thinking about the issue: Question from my H-S algebra text in 1951: "How many fence posts does it take to string up 100 feet of wire if the posts are 5 feet apart?" John On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Jim Kress ccl_nospam:_:kressworks.com wrote: > Perhaps a solution to this conundrum is differentiating between applied > mathematics and �pure� mathematics. I�ve always found that mathematics > taught in an application environment (e.g. the recent NanoHub course on > Fundamentals of Nanoelectronics) is much easier to absorb and apply than > that taught in splendid isolation where there is no connection to the real > world. > > > > Jim > > > > From: owner-chemistry+ccl_nospam==kressworks.com!A!ccl.net > [mailto:owner-chemistry+ccl_nospam==kressworks.com!A!ccl.net] On Behalf Of > Bradley Welch bwelch5**slu.edu > Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 12:21 AM > To: Kress, Jim > Subject: CCL: Apologies... the article I read was in the NYT, not CCL, but > the issue is still valid... > > > > I've had a math course taught in the chemistry department. It was probably > more worthwhile than the separate linear algebra and differential equations > courses I took. It got straight to the point with connecting concepts to > their chemistry ones. Admittedly there are other issues at work when people > struggle at Physical Chemistry. One of that I think is up until that point, > deriving is something your chemistry student has done little of. Your > average physics student by their junior year has probably has had modern > physics, classical mechanics, and other derivation heavy courses by the time > they get to quantum mechanics, statistical thermo, etc. > > On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 7:58 PM, Salomon Turgman Cohen sturgman.:.gmail.com > wrote: > > > Sent to CCL by: Salomon Turgman Cohen [sturgman()gmail.com] > Dear All, > My memories of the required Physical Chemistry course for the > cheme degree are still fresh in my memory. I remember struggling with > some of the tools and missing their relation to previous work in math > classes. Eventually, some of us just got it. Perhaps, a piece of this > puzzle is teaching department specific math classes (at higher costs > obviously) where mathematical concepts are connected immediately to > future topics to be taught in the (chemistry) field. > > Salomon > > On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Amy J Austin > docronindaemon(-)gmail.com wrote: >> >> Sent to CCL by: "Amy J Austin" [docronindaemon- -gmail.com] >> >> Hi John, >> >> I agree with you that Chemistry students should have to take more >> Mathematics as a prerequisite for the major. Further, I believe the lack of >> these required courses places undergraduate students lacking an education in >> higher level Mathematics at a disadvantage. Imagine learning the concepts >> involved in Physical Chemistry or Theoretical chemistry if one >> simultaneously struggles with the tools involved. >> >> A descriptive Chemist wouldn't need the same command of Mathematics as a >> Physical/Theoretical Chemist. Then again, how would an undergraduate student >> know if they had an interest in the latter without the fundamental >> Mathematical knowledge to master the material. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Amy >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> "John McKelvey jmmckel]*[gmail.com" wrote: >>> >>> Sent to CCL by: John McKelvey [jmmckel.]_[.gmail.com] >>> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/opinion/sunday/is-algebra-necessary.html?WT.mc_id=NYT-E-I-NYT-E-AT-0801-L14&nl=el >>> >>> -- >>> John McKelvey >>> 10819 Middleford Pl >>> Ft Wayne, IN 46818 >>> 260-489-2160 >>> jmmckel]_[gmail.com> >> > > > > -- > Salomon Turgman Cohen > Postdoctoral Associate > Cornell University > (919) 341-9650
> > E-mail to subscribers: CHEMISTRY[]ccl.net or use:> > E-mail to administrators: CHEMISTRY-REQUEST[]ccl.net or use>
> > > > -- > Bradley Welch > Saint Louis University > Monsanto Hall Room 218 -- John McKelvey 10819 Middleford Pl Ft Wayne, IN 46818 260-489-2160 jmmckel-.-gmail.com From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Tue Aug 7 23:01:00 2012 From: "Andrew Yeung andrew.yeung.:.chem.tamu.edu" To: CCL Subject: CCL: Is algebra necessary? Message-Id: <-47352-120807174107-18824-SxKXH33Va4Y5b1fdNAHfLQ- -server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: Andrew Yeung Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2012 16:40:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: Andrew Yeung [andrew.yeung]_[chem.tamu.edu] At a lower level, I'd agree that making it silly might help a student remember. At a higher level, understanding why things are done that way is important. Writing proofs (by deduction or induction) is an exercise in logic. Like Jesse said, math teaches you how to think. When I taught gen chem, I used some basic calculus to discuss a titration curve (max buffer: large change in acid causes small change in pH so dpH/dV = 0, and so on for the equivalence point). I thought this was a perfect setting to teach chemistry based on what the students already knew (= basic calculus). I must have been mistaken, because those students pulled out their calculators when I asked them what the common log of 1 was (pH = pKa when [salt] = [acid]). The average chemist doesn't need to use much math beyond the four operations. Maybe a little simple algebra, linearizing of equations, and linear regression for kinetics. However, I feel strongly that the chemist (scientist, engineer) remembers enough math to know how to approach a problem whenever a textbook says "it can be shown ...". And to remember all that math, you'll need to have done some of it by hand at one point. Andrew Yeung Donald J. Darensbourg Research Group Department of Chemistry, Texas A&M University 3255 TAMU College Station, TX 77843-3255 Tel: 979 845 4837 Fax: 979 845 0158 On 2012-08-07 9:40 AM, Jesse Gordon jesse.gordon/adotmatics.com wrote: > Sent to CCL by: Jesse Gordon [jesse.gordon . dotmatics.com] > I've been a math tutor for 25 years, at the high school and > undergraduate level, as a sideline to my day job as a > chemoinformatician. While I empathize with the sorry state of high > school math in Irene's posting and in the NY Times article, I think we > as scientists should have a different philosophy: mine is "Math > teachers should hate math as much as their students do." We can bemoan > that students are bad at math -- but mostly we should recognize that > algebra is really NOT very useful to most people (and even less so > trigonometry and calculus!) and try to get students to have some fun > with it anyway. > > I tell my students "I hate math" and that I'm a better teacher than > those who love math, because I can empathize with students who hate > math too. I tell them, too, that at the end of my first calculus > class I reveled in the relief of repeating, "That is the LAST math > class I will EVER take!" but then I said that same phrase after second > semester calculus; and that same phrase again after each semester of > advanced statistics; and then that same phrase AGAIN after > PChem-associated math. I suggest to students that they say it as often > as I did, because it helped me survive repeated self-inflicted > torture. But I also tell students that I made up a song, "My Boy Knows > Algebra", and I perform the little dance step I made up to go with it, > when my son completed his first algebra homework in 8th grade. In > other words, my students know I'm a nerd, and I try to make math fun > despite that it's distasteful to them.. > > I've been stumped, like Irene below, by math methods galore (I most > often teach SAT and GRE prep, which means I hop around many schools). > But the teaching method isn't as important as having a method that the > student is comfortable with -- I try to teach mnemonics, the goofier > the better (google "PEMDAS," e.g.), and I use words like "derivate" as > a verb when teaching calculus. My methodological vindication is best > summarized by my second semester calculus student who was flunking out > when he came to me for tutoring, but by the time he took his midterm > exam he had improved so much that the professor made him show his work > live because he was suspected of cheating. My student demonstrated, > "Well, to derivate fractions, the part on top gets derivated first > because the one on the bottom is tired from the trip to the top..." > the professor muttered disapproval of his terminology but could not > question that my student got every single problem right, even under > inspection. Newton had a different methof for calculus than Leibniz -- > who cares what the method is? -- only the result matters. > > As to the subject question, yes, math students ask me that all the > time, and I answer, "No, it isn't REALLY necessary in real life, but > it teaches you how to think. In the Olden Days, they taught ancient > Latin and Greek for the same purpose -- so be thankful you get to > learn something that at least helps you balance your checkbook!" The > NY Times article is simply the wrong attitude -- it advocates learning > math for its utility, when we should focus on what the students focus > on -- getting through the torture. I do also tell students that math > MIGHT be useful, if they carefullly choose their future vocation -- I > get to use and explain 4-parameter logistic curve-fitting and Kurtosis > values and other statistical gobbledygook as part of my daily job -- > but I had to choose very carefully in order to get there. My point to > my students is, they too should have that choice -- and algebra, > statistics, and calculus are the way to get there. > > ===================================== > Jesse Gordon > Application Scientist > Dotmatics Inc. > 400 West Cummings Park #5450, Woburn MA 01801 > T: +1 781-305-3114 > M: +1-617-320-6989 > Email: jesse.gordon * dotmatics.com > Skype: jessegordon > ====================================== > > Dotmatics Providing Informatics for Everyone > * August 19-21, 2012, 244th ACS Meeting #1708, Philadelphia PA USA > * August 21, 2012 - Triangle Biotech Research Symposium NC > Biotechnology Center, RTP, NC > * September 11-13, 2012 - Bio-IT World Cloud Summit Hotel Kabuki, SF, CA > * September 30, 2012 to October 3, 2012 - ACS Northeast Regional, Rochester, NY > * October 28, 2012 to November 2, 2012 - 2012 AIChE Annual Meeting, > Pittsburgh, PA > > > On 6 August 2012 15:33, Irene Newhouse einew|*|hotmail.com > wrote: >> Sent to CCL by: "Irene Newhouse" [einew-*-hotmail.com] >> The high failure rates in math aren't due to so many people being unable to learn math. They're due to the sorry state of math teaching. A large part of the problem is that education is all too subject to fads, and that teachers aren't given enough training in the method du jour. I say this as someone who has regularly tutored students in grades 1-12 in math since 2006. I have had to decode math homework for 3rd graders because their tutors, who passed algebra, geometry & algebra II in their day, had no clue. It took the extra math that comes with a Ph D in physical chemistry to be able to wrap my head around the assignments in the absence of training in the approach. When there are such abrupt changes in educational practice, not even parents who did well in school in their day are able to help their children with homework. >> >> The math tutor in this area for whom I have the utmost respect has taught an autistic student whose public high school deemed incapable of getting a diploma, enough math to pass the Compass test to the Math 100 level for the local community college. He has also taken another autistic student, who tested at grade 4 math before tutoring, to grade 7 math, **in one summer**, and summer vacation around here is only 6 weeks - modified year-round schedule. Both sets of tests were done by the student's public school, so they're about as objective as you can get. The student's parents told him the results caused quite a stir at school. He regularly teaches kids under 10 how to factor quadratic equations & other similar algebra concepts. He works with the kids who come to him, usually because they're struggling in math at school, not with child prodigies. >> >> On the other hand, there are still many occupations that don't require one to be able to do upper level high school math, and it's been silly to try to merge what in my day were the vocational, business, and academic high school tracks into one curriculum that doesn't serve anybody particularly well. >> >> A lifetime ago, my first boss explained that he had very competent primary & high school teachers because in his day, a woman who wanted a career had pretty much only 3 choices - teacher, nurse, or secretary. Now that women had more choice, the most intelligent young women were no longer choosing teaching, which, as a 'woman's job' was historically grossly underpaid. He ended by stating that for about 150 years, the US had a pretty good general education system only because it was solidly based on the exploitation of the brightest American women. Since the end of that era, we've been getting the teachers we've been paying for all along. Around here, experienced condo cleaners get the same or higher wages as starting teachers, so it's not going to be easy to solve the problem. >> >> Irene Newhouse >> >> > Sent to CCL by: Salomon Turgman Cohen [sturgman()gmail.com] > Dear All, > My memories of the required Physical Chemistry course for the > cheme degree are still fresh in my memory. I remember struggling with > some of the tools and missing their relation to previous work in math > classes. Eventually, some of us just got it. Perhaps, a piece of this > puzzle is teaching department specific math classes (at higher costs > obviously) where mathematical concepts are connected immediately to > future topics to be taught in the (chemistry) field. > > Salomon > > On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Amy J Austin > docronindaemon(-)gmail.com wrote: >> Sent to CCL by: "Amy J Austin" [docronindaemon- -gmail.com] >> >> Hi John, >> >> I agree with you that Chemistry students should have to take more Mathematics as a prerequisite for the major. Further, I believe the lack of these required courses places undergraduate students lacking an education in higher level Mathematics at a disadvantage. Imagine learning the concepts involved in Physical Chemistry or Theoretical chemistry if one simultaneously struggles with the tools involved. >> >> A descriptive Chemist wouldn't need the same command of Mathematics as a Physical/Theoretical Chemist. Then again, how would an undergraduate student know if they had an interest in the latter without the fundamental Mathematical knowledge to master the material. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Amy >> From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Tue Aug 7 23:36:00 2012 From: "David A Mannock dmannock^^ualberta.ca" To: CCL Subject: CCL: Is algebra necessary? Message-Id: <-47353-120807174923-24984-Nd2edlBP1n3X3QyUKPqU4g#,#server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: David A Mannock Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d04016cad363ad304c6b3f62d Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 15:48:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: David A Mannock [dmannock-x-ualberta.ca] --f46d04016cad363ad304c6b3f62d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Jesse, although I whole heartedly believe in self-flagellation and struggle with many scientific problems, I get satisfaction from achieving the goal. I'm often a grumpy old bastard until I have finished the job!! I have been told by several senior scientists that they enjoy reading my papers because they provide a better physico-chemical insight into the system than the majority. Not bad for someone with a BSc Botany/Zoology as a first degree. I understand your negative approach of "this is the last maths course that I will ever have to take" and for people wanting to be restaurant diswashers and those wanting to use a credit card rather than design the polymer, the ferromagnetic strip, the code on that strip and the software behind the cash machine, all I can say is that the world is a marvellous place with many natural phenomena and many man-made examples of math in daily use. Taking a look at this positive aspect of the world has its place in teaching too. I can remember gettin a 5 yr old a small gyroscope as a gift one Christmas and explaining to him how it worked. I have done the same to other kids with my collection of old film cameras. I argued with a 17 yr old young lady some years ago who said that she did not need to take maths beyond a certain grade, because she would never use it in her life. Why stop at maths, why not all the sciences, the languages, philosophy, psychology, social studies and so forth. Few of us have a use for Shakespeare or Chaucer after school, but the beauty of the language and the concepts presented in those stories provide insight into the human condition. Should we say to all children that it is not worthwhile being literate and numerate? That having a philosophical perspective on the world the universe and everything is a waste of time? I was never a straight A student and had to struggle with problems to find some satisfaction in life. By struggling with problems, I find answers that much cleverer people than I, ignore because they do not want to waste their time on a deeper analysis of the system and the effort expended may show that they are not as clever as they think they are. It used to be that you had to earn the right to have a tattoo on your body, now it is a life-style statement! Yet I have met no one willing to have "this way up!" tattoed on their forehead. That would be embarassing and embarassing situations are things that people in the modern era want to avoid to keep up appearances of competence. Sadly, we have become a tribe of lazy people wanting instant gratification without effort! This reminds me of a story: There was an old man and a young hip dude sitting on a bench watching a passenger jet over head. The young man said, "I bet you didn't have such things when you were young!". The old man replied, "No we had to thing about it, draw it on paper, engineer it, build it and then make it available to the world. Now get off your ass and do something useful with your life!". On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 8:40 AM, Jesse Gordon jesse.gordon/adotmatics.com < owner-chemistry]-[ccl.net> wrote: > > Sent to CCL by: Jesse Gordon [jesse.gordon . dotmatics.com] > I've been a math tutor for 25 years, at the high school and > undergraduate level, as a sideline to my day job as a > chemoinformatician. While I empathize with the sorry state of high > school math in Irene's posting and in the NY Times article, I think we > as scientists should have a different philosophy: mine is "Math > teachers should hate math as much as their students do." We can bemoan > that students are bad at math -- but mostly we should recognize that > algebra is really NOT very useful to most people (and even less so > trigonometry and calculus!) and try to get students to have some fun > with it anyway. > > I tell my students "I hate math" and that I'm a better teacher than > those who love math, because I can empathize with students who hate > math too. I tell them, too, that at the end of my first calculus > class I reveled in the relief of repeating, "That is the LAST math > class I will EVER take!" but then I said that same phrase after second > semester calculus; and that same phrase again after each semester of > advanced statistics; and then that same phrase AGAIN after > PChem-associated math. I suggest to students that they say it as often > as I did, because it helped me survive repeated self-inflicted > torture. But I also tell students that I made up a song, "My Boy Knows > Algebra", and I perform the little dance step I made up to go with it, > when my son completed his first algebra homework in 8th grade. In > other words, my students know I'm a nerd, and I try to make math fun > despite that it's distasteful to them.. > > I've been stumped, like Irene below, by math methods galore (I most > often teach SAT and GRE prep, which means I hop around many schools). > But the teaching method isn't as important as having a method that the > student is comfortable with -- I try to teach mnemonics, the goofier > the better (google "PEMDAS," e.g.), and I use words like "derivate" as > a verb when teaching calculus. My methodological vindication is best > summarized by my second semester calculus student who was flunking out > when he came to me for tutoring, but by the time he took his midterm > exam he had improved so much that the professor made him show his work > live because he was suspected of cheating. My student demonstrated, > "Well, to derivate fractions, the part on top gets derivated first > because the one on the bottom is tired from the trip to the top..." > the professor muttered disapproval of his terminology but could not > question that my student got every single problem right, even under > inspection. Newton had a different methof for calculus than Leibniz -- > who cares what the method is? -- only the result matters. > > As to the subject question, yes, math students ask me that all the > time, and I answer, "No, it isn't REALLY necessary in real life, but > it teaches you how to think. In the Olden Days, they taught ancient > Latin and Greek for the same purpose -- so be thankful you get to > learn something that at least helps you balance your checkbook!" The > NY Times article is simply the wrong attitude -- it advocates learning > math for its utility, when we should focus on what the students focus > on -- getting through the torture. I do also tell students that math > MIGHT be useful, if they carefullly choose their future vocation -- I > get to use and explain 4-parameter logistic curve-fitting and Kurtosis > values and other statistical gobbledygook as part of my daily job -- > but I had to choose very carefully in order to get there. My point to > my students is, they too should have that choice -- and algebra, > statistics, and calculus are the way to get there. > > ===================================== > Jesse Gordon > Application Scientist > Dotmatics Inc. > 400 West Cummings Park #5450, Woburn MA 01801 > T: +1 781-305-3114 > M: +1-617-320-6989 > Email: jesse.gordon * dotmatics.com > Skype: jessegordon > ====================================== > > Dotmatics Providing Informatics for Everyone > * August 19-21, 2012, 244th ACS Meeting #1708, Philadelphia PA USA > * August 21, 2012 - Triangle Biotech Research Symposium NC > Biotechnology Center, RTP, NC > * September 11-13, 2012 - Bio-IT World Cloud Summit Hotel Kabuki, SF, CA > * September 30, 2012 to October 3, 2012 - ACS Northeast Regional, > Rochester, NY > * October 28, 2012 to November 2, 2012 - 2012 AIChE Annual Meeting, > Pittsburgh, PA > > > On 6 August 2012 15:33, Irene Newhouse einew|*|hotmail.com > wrote: > > > > Sent to CCL by: "Irene Newhouse" [einew-*-hotmail.com] > > The high failure rates in math aren't due to so many people being unable > to learn math. They're due to the sorry state of math teaching. A large > part of the problem is that education is all too subject to fads, and that > teachers aren't given enough training in the method du jour. I say this as > someone who has regularly tutored students in grades 1-12 in math since > 2006. I have had to decode math homework for 3rd graders because their > tutors, who passed algebra, geometry & algebra II in their day, had no > clue. It took the extra math that comes with a Ph D in physical chemistry > to be able to wrap my head around the assignments in the absence of > training in the approach. When there are such abrupt changes in educational > practice, not even parents who did well in school in their day are able to > help their children with homework. > > > > The math tutor in this area for whom I have the utmost respect has > taught an autistic student whose public high school deemed incapable of > getting a diploma, enough math to pass the Compass test to the Math 100 > level for the local community college. He has also taken another autistic > student, who tested at grade 4 math before tutoring, to grade 7 math, **in > one summer**, and summer vacation around here is only 6 weeks - modified > year-round schedule. Both sets of tests were done by the student's public > school, so they're about as objective as you can get. The student's parents > told him the results caused quite a stir at school. He regularly teaches > kids under 10 how to factor quadratic equations & other similar algebra > concepts. He works with the kids who come to him, usually because they're > struggling in math at school, not with child prodigies. > > > > On the other hand, there are still many occupations that don't require > one to be able to do upper level high school math, and it's been silly to > try to merge what in my day were the vocational, business, and academic > high school tracks into one curriculum that doesn't serve anybody > particularly well. > > > > A lifetime ago, my first boss explained that he had very competent > primary & high school teachers because in his day, a woman who wanted a > career had pretty much only 3 choices - teacher, nurse, or secretary. Now > that women had more choice, the most intelligent young women were no longer > choosing teaching, which, as a 'woman's job' was historically grossly > underpaid. He ended by stating that for about 150 years, the US had a > pretty good general education system only because it was solidly based on > the exploitation of the brightest American women. Since the end of that > era, we've been getting the teachers we've been paying for all along. > Around here, experienced condo cleaners get the same or higher wages as > starting teachers, so it's not going to be easy to solve the problem. > > > > Irene Newhouse > > > > > Sent to CCL by: Salomon Turgman Cohen [sturgman()gmail.com] > Dear All, > My memories of the required Physical Chemistry course for the > cheme degree are still fresh in my memory. I remember struggling with > some of the tools and missing their relation to previous work in math > classes. Eventually, some of us just got it. Perhaps, a piece of this > puzzle is teaching department specific math classes (at higher costs > obviously) where mathematical concepts are connected immediately to > future topics to be taught in the (chemistry) field. > > Salomon > > On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Amy J Austin > docronindaemon(-)gmail.com wrote: > > > > Sent to CCL by: "Amy J Austin" [docronindaemon- -gmail.com] > > > > Hi John, > > > > I agree with you that Chemistry students should have to take more > Mathematics as a prerequisite for the major. Further, I believe the lack of > these required courses places undergraduate students lacking an education > in higher level Mathematics at a disadvantage. Imagine learning the > concepts involved in Physical Chemistry or Theoretical chemistry if one > simultaneously struggles with the tools involved. > > > > A descriptive Chemist wouldn't need the same command of Mathematics as a > Physical/Theoretical Chemist. Then again, how would an undergraduate > student know if they had an interest in the latter without the fundamental > Mathematical knowledge to master the material. > > > > > > Best, > > > > Amy > > > -- > Disclaimer: This electronic mail and its attachments are intended solely > for > the person(s) to whom they are addressed and contain information which is > confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure, except for the purpose > for which they are intended. Dissemination, distribution, or reproduction > by > anyone other than the intended recipients is prohibited and may be illegal. > If you are not an intended recipient, please immediately inform the sender > and return the electronic mail and its attachments and destroy any copies > which may be in your possession. Dotmatics Limited screens electronic mails > for viruses but does not warrant that this electronic mail is free of any > viruses. Dotmatics Limited accepts no liability for any damage caused by > any virus transmitted by this electronic mail. Dotmatics Limited is > registered in England & Wales No. 5614524 with offices at The Old > Monastery, > Windhill, Bishops Stortford, Herts, CM23 2ND, UK.> > > --f46d04016cad363ad304c6b3f62d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jesse, although I whole heartedly believe in self-flagellation and struggle= with many scientific problems, I get satisfaction from achieving the goal.= I'm often a grumpy old bastard until I have finished the job!!=A0 I ha= ve been told by several senior scientists that they enjoy reading my papers= because they provide a better physico-chemical insight into the system tha= n the majority. Not bad for someone with a BSc Botany/Zoology as a first de= gree. I understand your negative approach of "this is the last maths c= ourse that I will ever have to take" and for people wanting to be rest= aurant diswashers and those wanting to use a credit card rather than design= the polymer, the ferromagnetic strip, the code on that strip and the softw= are behind the cash machine, all I can say is that the world is a marvellou= s place with many natural phenomena and many man-made examples of math in d= aily use. Taking a look at this positive aspect of the world has its place = in teaching too. I can remember gettin a 5 yr old a small gyroscope as a gi= ft one Christmas and explaining to him how it worked. I have done the same = to other kids with my collection of old film cameras. I argued with a 17 yr= old young lady some years ago who said that she did not need to take maths= beyond a certain grade, because she would never use it in her life. Why st= op at maths, why not all the sciences, the languages, philosophy, psycholog= y, social studies and so forth. Few of us have a use for Shakespeare or Cha= ucer after school, but the beauty of the language and the concepts presente= d in those stories provide insight into the human condition. Should we say = to all children that it is not worthwhile being literate and numerate? That= having a philosophical perspective on the world the universe and everythin= g is a waste of time? I was never a straight A student and had to struggle = with problems to find some satisfaction in life. By struggling with problem= s, I find answers that much cleverer people than I, ignore because they do = not want to waste their time on a deeper analysis of the system and the eff= ort expended may show that they are not as clever as they think they are. = It used to be that you had to earn the right to have a tattoo on your body,= now it is a life-style statement! Yet I have met no one willing to have &q= uot;this way up!" tattoed on their forehead. That would be embarassing= and embarassing situations are things that people in the modern era want t= o avoid to keep up appearances of competence. Sadly, we have become a tribe= of lazy people wanting instant gratification without effort! This reminds = me of a story:

There was an old man and a young hip dude sitting on a bench watching a= passenger jet over head. The young man said, "I bet you didn't ha= ve such things when you were young!". The old man replied, "No we= had to thing about it, draw it on paper, engineer it, build it and then ma= ke it available to the world. Now get off your ass and do something useful = with your life!".

On Tue, Aug 7, 2012 at 8:40 AM, Jesse Gordon= jesse.gordon/adotmatics.com <= owner-chemistry]-[ccl.net> wrote:

Sent to CCL by: Jesse Gordon [jesse.gordon . dotmatics.com]
I've been a math tutor for 25 years, at the high school and
undergraduate level, as a sideline to my day job as a
chemoinformatician. While I empathize with the sorry state of high
school math in Irene's posting and in the NY Times article, I think we<= br> as scientists should have a different philosophy: mine is "Math
teachers should hate math as much as their students do." We can bemoan=
that students are bad at math -- but mostly we should recognize that
algebra is really NOT very useful to most people (and even less so
trigonometry and calculus!) and try to get students to have some fun
with it anyway.

I tell my students "I hate math" and that I'm a better teache= r than
those who love math, because I can empathize with students who hate
math too. I tell them, too, that at the end of my first =A0calculus
class I reveled in the relief of repeating, "That is the LAST math
class I will EVER take!" but then I said that same phrase after second=
semester calculus; and that same phrase again after each semester of
advanced statistics; and then that same phrase AGAIN after
PChem-associated math. I suggest to students that they say it as often
as I did, because it helped me survive repeated self-inflicted
torture. But I also tell students that I made up a song, "My Boy Knows=
Algebra", and I perform the little dance step I made up to go with it,=
when my son completed his first algebra homework in 8th grade. In
other words, my students know I'm a nerd, and I try to make math fun despite that it's distasteful to them..

I've been stumped, like Irene below, by math methods galore (I most
often teach SAT and GRE prep, which means I hop around many schools).
But the teaching method isn't as important as having a method that the<= br> student is comfortable with -- I try to teach mnemonics, the goofier
the better (google "PEMDAS," e.g.), and I use words like "de= rivate" as
a verb when teaching calculus. My methodological vindication is best
summarized by my second semester calculus student who was flunking out
when he came to me for tutoring, but by the time he took his midterm
exam he had improved so much that the professor made him show his work
live because he was suspected of cheating. My student demonstrated,
"Well, to derivate fractions, the part on top gets derivated first
because the one on the bottom is tired from the trip to the top..." the professor muttered disapproval of his terminology but could not
question that my student got every single problem right, even under
inspection. Newton had a different methof for calculus than Leibniz --
who cares what the method is? -- only the result matters.

As to the subject question, yes, math students ask me that all the
time, and I answer, "No, it isn't REALLY necessary in real life, b= ut
it teaches you how to think. In the Olden Days, they taught ancient
Latin and Greek for the same purpose -- so be thankful you get to
learn something that at least helps you balance your checkbook!" The NY Times article is simply the wrong attitude -- it advocates learning
math for its utility, when we should focus on what the students focus
on -- getting through the torture. I do also tell students that math
MIGHT be useful, if they carefullly choose their future vocation -- I
get to use and explain 4-parameter logistic curve-fitting and Kurtosis
values and other statistical gobbledygook as part of my daily job --
but I had to choose very carefully in order to get there. My point to
my students is, they too should have that choice -- and algebra,
statistics, and calculus are the way to get there.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Jesse Gordon
Application Scientist
Dotmatics Inc.
400 West Cummings Park #5450, Woburn MA 01801
T: +1 781-305-31= 14
M: +1-617-320-6989=
Email: jesse.gordon * do= tmatics.com
Skype: jessegordon
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Dotmatics Providing Informatics for Everyone
* August 19-21, 2012, 244th ACS Meeting #1708, Philadelphia PA USA
* August 21, 2012 - Triangle Biotech Research Symposium NC
Biotechnology Center, RTP, NC
* September 11-13, 2012 - Bio-IT World Cloud Summit Hotel Kabuki, SF, CA * September 30, 2012 to October 3, 2012 - ACS Northeast Regional, Rochester= , NY
* October 28, 2012 to November 2, 2012 - 2012 AIChE Annual Meeting,
Pittsburgh, PA

On 6 August 2012 15:33, Irene Newhouse einew|*|hotmail.com

<owner-chemistry * ccl.net> wrote:
>
> Sent to CCL by: "Irene =A0Newhouse" [einew-*-hotmail.com]
> The high failure rates in math aren't due to so many people being = unable to learn math. They're due to the sorry state of math teaching. = A large part of the problem is that education is all too subject to fads, a= nd that teachers aren't given enough training in the method du jour. I = say this as someone who has regularly tutored students in grades 1-12 in ma= th since 2006. I have had to decode math homework for 3rd graders because t= heir tutors, who passed algebra, geometry & algebra II in their day, ha= d no clue. It took the extra math that comes with a Ph D in physical chemis= try to be able to wrap my head around the assignments in the absence of tra= ining in the approach. When there are such abrupt changes in educational pr= actice, not even parents who did well in school in their day are able to he= lp their children with homework.
>
> The math tutor in this area for whom I have the utmost respect has tau= ght an autistic student whose public high school deemed incapable of gettin= g a diploma, enough math to pass the Compass test to the Math 100 level for= the local community college. He has also taken another autistic student, w= ho tested at grade 4 math before tutoring, to grade 7 math, **in one summer= **, and summer vacation around here is only 6 weeks - modified year-round s= chedule. Both sets of tests were done by the student's public school, s= o they're about as objective as you can get. The student's parents = told him the results caused quite a stir at school. He regularly teaches ki= ds under 10 how to factor quadratic equations & other similar algebra c= oncepts. He works with the kids who come to him, usually because they'r= e struggling in math at school, not with child prodigies.
>
> On the other hand, there are still many occupations that don't req= uire one to be able to do upper level high school math, and it's been s= illy to try to merge what in my day were the vocational, business, and acad= emic high school tracks into one curriculum that doesn't serve anybody = particularly well.
>
> A lifetime ago, my first boss explained that he had very competent pri= mary & high school teachers because in his day, a woman who wanted a ca= reer had pretty much only 3 choices =A0- teacher, nurse, or secretary. Now = that women had more choice, the most intelligent young women were no longer= choosing teaching, which, as a 'woman's job' was historically = grossly underpaid. He ended by stating that for about 150 years, the US had= a pretty good general education system only because it was solidly based o= n the exploitation of the brightest American women. Since the end of that e= ra, we've been getting the teachers we've been paying for all along= . Around here, experienced condo cleaners get the same or higher wages as s= tarting teachers, so it's not going to be easy to solve the problem. >
> Irene Newhouse
>
>

Sent to CCL by: Salomon Turgman Cohen [sturgman()gmail.com]
Dear All,
=A0 =A0 My memories of the required Physical Chemistry course for the
cheme degree are still fresh in my memory. I remember struggling with
some of the tools and missing their relation to previous work in math
classes. Eventually, some of us just got it. Perhaps, a piece of this
puzzle is teaching department specific math classes (at higher costs
obviously) where mathematical concepts are connected immediately to
future topics to be taught in the (chemistry) field.

Salomon

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Amy J Austin
docronindaemon(-)gmail.com <owner-chemistry- -ccl.n= et> wrote:
>
> Sent to CCL by: "Amy J Austin" [docronindaemon- -gmail.com]
>
> Hi John,
>
> I agree with you that Chemistry students should have to take more Math= ematics as a prerequisite for the major. Further, I believe the lack of the= se required courses places undergraduate students lacking an education in h= igher level Mathematics at a disadvantage. Imagine learning the concepts in= volved in Physical Chemistry or Theoretical chemistry if one simultaneously= struggles with the tools involved.
>
> A descriptive Chemist wouldn't need the same command of Mathematic= s as a Physical/Theoretical Chemist. Then again, how would an undergraduate= student know if they had an interest in the latter without the fundamental= Mathematical knowledge to master the material.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Amy
>
--
Disclaimer: This electronic mail and its attachments are intended solely fo= r
the person(s) to whom they are addressed and contain information which is confidential or otherwise protected from disclosure, except for the purpose=
for which they are intended. Dissemination, distribution, or reproduction b= y
anyone other than the intended recipients is prohibited and may be illegal.=
If you are not an intended recipient, please immediately inform the sender<= br> and return the electronic mail and its attachments and destroy any copies which may be in your possession. Dotmatics Limited screens electronic mails=
for viruses but does not warrant that this electronic mail is free of any viruses. Dotmatics Limited accepts no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this electronic mail. Dotmatics Limited is
registered in England & Wales No. 5614524 with offices at The Old Monas= tery,
Windhill, Bishops Stortford, Herts, CM23 2ND, UK.

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