From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Sat Dec 3 09:34:00 2005 From: "Eric Scerri scerri_+_chem.ucla.edu" To: CCL Subject: CCL: question on molecular orbitals in CO and NO Message-Id: <-30165-051203092801-13728-kQaPmukqzVRHC1ZkulcnKg() server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: Eric Scerri Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 06:27:50 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Sent to CCL by: Eric Scerri [scerri,chem.ucla.edu] Just a point about all this, There are now claims that relative phases have been observed, as in the recent Itatani paper in Nature. What do listmembers think of the this? Does it constitute the observation of orbitals in any sense? Or would that require the observation of absolute phases? eric scerri ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ On Dec 2, 2005, at 10:43 AM, Sengen Sun sengensuna/yahoo.com wrote: > Sent to CCL by: Sengen Sun [sengensun() yahoo.com] > Joslyn, > > Good suggestion. Let us put it off to avoid being > heated up. I thought the winter and the blizard could > help...... > > Actually, the heat could be avoided if we just simply > say TRUE or FALSE to the quote by Hoffmann. > > I have been overwhelmed by some heat of agreements and > disagreements in a bunch of private e-mails in the > last 30 hours. A coule of them are too long without a > clear point. > > If an experimental quantity A tells something or some > actions about B, B then can be measured through A. In > the other words, can a physical reality tell anything > of no physical existence and no physical meaning? Is > not this an interesting philosophical issue? > > But we, including many Doctors of Philosophy, should > put off the discussion, ignore it, or discard it to > avoid being burnt! Let us go back to our daily things > that do not generate heat then. I have no problem to > go back to some cool science and cool philisophy. > > Thanks to every one for contributions and attention. > > > -:) > > Sengen > ------------------------------------------------ > > >> From: Joslyn Y Kravitz >> Subject: CCL: question on molecular orbitals in CO >> and NO >> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:57:37 -0500 (EST) >> >> >> Didn't we just have this conversation in February? >> Not that it wasn't interesting but I seem to recall > that >> it got rather heated and since we've recently had a >> bunch of heated debates on the list maybe now is not >> the time to do this again. >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! >> >> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs >> > > > > > > > __________________________________________ > Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. > Just $16.99/mo. or less. > dsl.yahoo.com > > > > -= This is automatically added to each message by the mailing > script =- > To recover the email address of the author of the message, please > change> > Search Messages: http://www.ccl.net/htdig (login: ccl, Password: > search)> > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > +-+-+ > > Dr. Eric Scerri Department of Chemistry & Biochemistry, Charles Young Drive, Los Angeles, CA 90095. 310 206 7443 fax: 310 206 2061 UCLA faculty web page: http://www.chem.ucla.edu/dept/Faculty/scerri/ Editor of Foundations of Chemistry, http://springerlink.metapress.com/(uw25gnu4jydrz5555tyeokjs)/app/home/ journal.asp?referrer=parent&backto=linkingpublicationresults,1:103024,1 From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Sat Dec 3 13:29:00 2005 From: "Jim Kress ccl_nospam : kressworks.com" To: CCL Subject: CCL: What about an alternative CCL ? Message-Id: <-30166-051203131238-2549-46TsBtbBTvsGzHr6xM2k9g . server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: "Jim Kress" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 12:13:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: "Jim Kress" [ccl_nospam,kressworks.com] Ah yes, let's assign bad names (flames, trolls, and personal axe-grinding) to topics about which we disagree and then suppress their expression because they have been assigned thusly. It's a good technique. One that's been used throughout history to suppress ideas that people didn't like or couldn't disprove. In our current social environment it's even become a trendy way of dismissing those pesky people with whom we disagree. Unfortunately for those who wish to ignore it, there are basic issues regarding the funding of science in our country that must be resolved. That may seem unimportant (or trollish or flamish or axe grinding) now. However, in not too many years the Congress' Social Security slush fund (and it's other slush funds) is going to dry up and they won't have any funds to disperse to the scientific community (or many other places for that matter). The annual national deficit will reach into the trillion dollar range. The debt repayment will also reach into the trillion dollar range. The funding system will collapse or dry up. The economy may collapse as other nations demand repayment of the debit instruments they hold that are currently propping up our economy. The taxpayers will NOT tolerate the extreme increases in tax rates that will be required to maintain science (and other non-Constitutionally mandated) spending at current levels and massive cuts will be enacted. Spending on science will be among the first to fall because taxpayers will recognize and enforce the basic premise of our government, i.e. we are a Constitutionally Limited Republic where the power wielded by the government is explicitly assigned to it by the citizens (via the Constitution) and the citizens never assigned (via the Constitution) Congress the power to fund science. The taxpayers will become more and more aware that the government is forcibly taking their money to give to other people to do work they don't care about, think is useless, and was never authorized. They will exponentially escalate their resistance to this use of force, especially when they see their standard of living destroyed just so the government can give their money to other people. What are you all going to do then? That is the origination of my 'flames, trolls, and personal axe-grinding'. That is the reason I have brought this up. You ignore this at your own peril. Study history. Revolutions have started over less. Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Shobe, David dshobe%sud-chemieinc.com > [mailto:owner-chemistry|a|ccl.net] > Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 6:17 PM > To: Kress, Jim > Subject: CCL: What about an alternative CCL ? > > Sent to CCL by: "Shobe, David" [dshobe^_^sud-chemieinc.com] > I'm afraid that flames, trolls, and personal axe-grinding are > inherent to this type of forum. :-( A second CCL will not help. > > Not that I mean to excuse such rude behavior. > > --David Shobe, Ph.D., M.L.S. > Süd-Chemie, Inc. > phone (502) 634-7409 > fax (502) 634-7724 > > Don't bother flaming me: I'm behind a firewall. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-chemistry__ccl.net [mailto:owner-chemistry__ccl.net] > Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 4:16 PM > To: Shobe, David > Subject: CCL: What about an alternative CCL ? > > Sent to CCL by: "Dillen Jan [jlmd],[sun.ac.za]" > I was just wondering whether it might not > be the time to establish an alternative to the current CCL > where people can ask questions about certain programs without > being brand-marked as freaks, where the response is not a > lecture about the pros and cons of capitalism, socialism, or > the spending of US taxpayer's money and, most importantly, > where people do not find the need to apologise for their bad > English to avoid a lashing. > > Just a thought. > > J. Dillen > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-chemistry\a/ccl.net [mailto:owner-chemistry\a/ccl.net] > Sent: 02 December 2005 17:22 > To: Dillen Jan > Subject: CCL: Gauzzian Compilation > > > Sent to CCL by: Mehdi Bounouar [mehdi.bounouar*ch.tum.de] Hum, > > Well, not replying is sufficient. Beside that this Gauzzian inc. > bashing is really annoying and does not help anyone ... > > > Rather disgusting behavior for a company that charges thousands of > > dollars for taxpayer funded work and then refuses to provide > > comprehensive support for those products it has developed > with money > > forcibly removed from other people. > > also not everyone on this list is an USA tax payer, write > your congressman for a Gauzzian-US version ;-) > > > and apologies to everyone especially to Roger (No answer > inside) and Jim if he takes my answer as a personal attack > (sorry bad english) > > Mehdihttp://www.ccl.net/cgi-bin/ccl/send_ccl_messagehttp://www .ccl.net/chemistry/sub_unsub.shtmlhttp://www.ccl.net/spammers.tx> tThis e-mail message may contain confidential and / or > privileged information. If you are not an addressee or > otherwise authorized to receive this message, you should not > use, copy, disclose or take any action based on this e-mail > or any information contained in the message. If you have > received this material in error, please advise the sender > immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. > Thank you. > > > > -= This is automatically added to each message by the mailing > script =- To recover the email address of the author of the > message, please change the strange characters on the top line > to the |a| sign. You can also look up the X-Original-From: line > in the mail header.> > Search Messages: http://www.ccl.net/htdig (login: ccl, > Password: search)> > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > -+-+-+-+-+ > > > > > > From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Sat Dec 3 14:04:01 2005 From: "Egon Willighagen egonw ~~ sci.kun.nl" To: CCL Subject: CCL: Webcrawlers for Molecule Gathering Message-Id: <-30167-051203120238-20394-lph1d/9M5cpjiJA+e9QFsw^_^server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: Egon Willighagen Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 14:03:48 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: Egon Willighagen [egonw . sci.kun.nl] On Friday 02 December 2005 23:35, Andrew D. Fant fant###pobox.com wrote: > Has anyone here seen or written a web spider that specifically > collects molecular structure data? My main interest would be looking for > sd and mol files, but I am not fussy at this point. I didn't have a lot of > luck on the topic with google, and thought that someone here might have > some knowledge to spare. . The syntax that google includes the parameter 'as_filetype'. So looking for mol files goes like: http://www.google.nl/search?as_q=benzene&as_filetype=mol or for SD files: http://www.google.nl/search?as_q=benzene&as_filetype=sdf BTW, modifying any of the open source spiders to crawl and just mol files should not that be difficult either. Out of curiosity... why do you want to do it anyway, now that you can download > from PubChem or Zinc millions of structures? Egon -- e.willighagen]~[science.ru.nl PhD student on Molecular Representation in Chemometrics Radboud University Nijmegen Blog: http://chem-bla-ics.blogspot.com/ http://www.cac.science.ru.nl/people/egonw/ GPG: 1024D/D6336BA6 From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Sat Dec 3 17:09:00 2005 From: "Sengen Sun sengensun[A]yahoo.com" To: CCL Subject: CCL: question on molecular orbitals in CO and NO Message-Id: <-30168-051203170346-31519-cyn5crIZaOSk0BpA6k/20w_._server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: Sengen Sun Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 14:03:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: Sengen Sun [sengensun() yahoo.com] In In the brackets below, I post some quotes from several e-mails I received that are in my favor. I did not get author's permisions, but just hide their identities. This thing has been burnt very ugly. I got to run away at least for a while after this posting. 1. [ > >But we, including many Doctors of Philosophy, > should > >put off the discussion, ignore it, or discard it to > >avoid being burnt! Let us go back to our daily > things > >that do not generate heat then. I have no problem > to > >go back to some cool science and cool philisophy. > > > > > No, I enjoyed your posts, plus the spirit. Are > Ph.D's > becoming > printers? > Well, printers have CPUs, but their CPUs seem to > follow only > instructions than process data. ;=) ] 2. [ > This is a very valuable discussion and should be > continued. I admire your courage to tackle such a > corrupted area in science. ] 3. [Very Interesting!] 4. [ > As you imply here, there is clear mistakes how the > orbital concept is used and described. You are > making > some very valuable effort. But I doubt anything you > can really do about it. There are some who want to > say > something obviously wrong. Some others tried to > correct them but it seems all failed. ] 5. [ > I am just a graduate student working for my Ph.D. > and > have learned a lot from the CCL discusions. Now I > have > a much clearer picture about orbitals. I think the > discusion is necessary as some people like me can > learn something that cannot be learned anywhere > else. ] --- wrote: > From: Eric Scerri > Subject: CCL: question on molecular orbitals in CO > and NO > Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 06:27:50 -0800 > To: sengensun#%#yahoo.com > > > Just a point about all this, > > There are now claims that relative phases have been > observed, as in the recent Itatani paper in Nature. > > What do listmembers think of the this? Does it > constitute the observation of orbitals in any sense? > > Or would that require the observation of absolute > phases? > eric scerri > As just learned from Steinmetz, Pope advised that "drink deeplyu or not at all of the Pyrean (sic) spring". But I, a small guy and worthless, have an advice: we have to dig out the roots to get rid of weeds. Otherwise, our philosophy would be awckwardly self-contradictory. :-) Cheers! Sengen __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Sat Dec 3 17:43:00 2005 From: "Terry Frankcombe T.Frankcombe[]chem.leidenuniv.nl" To: CCL Subject: CCL: What about an alternative CCL ? Message-Id: <-30169-051203173411-12497-46TsBtbBTvsGzHr6xM2k9g:+:server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: Terry Frankcombe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 22:30:00 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: Terry Frankcombe [T.Frankcombe!=!chem.leidenuniv.nl] > Unfortunately for those who wish to ignore it, there are basic issues > regarding the funding of science in our country that must be resolved. Oh, excuse me. Here I was thinking that I was subscribed to an international, science-focused list. I didn't realise that Pax Americana had taken over CCL also. Get a grip Jim. Take it to an appropriate forum. Most of us don't care about your domestic politics. Your rants---valid as they may be---don't belong here. I really don't want to have to killfile you. -- Dr Terry Frankcombe LIC / Theoretical Chemistry University of Leiden Postbus 9502, 2300 RA Leiden, The Netherlands Ph. +31 71 527 4533 Fax +31 71 527 4397 From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Sat Dec 3 18:29:00 2005 From: "Geoffrey Hutchison grh25|cornell.edu" To: CCL Subject: CCL: Webcrawlers for Molecule Gathering Message-Id: <-30170-051203181745-6970-zZlk6rggq8dixYUQZRMiQg*_*server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: Geoffrey Hutchison Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 18:17:37 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v746.2) Sent to CCL by: Geoffrey Hutchison [grh25__cornell.edu] > BTW, modifying any of the open source spiders to crawl and just mol > files > should not that be difficult either. Nope, it's not that difficult. Prof. Henry Rzepa did this a while ago, actually: http://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/rzepa/motm/ http://www.rsc.org/ej/OB/2005/b502828k.pdf Cheers, -Geoff -- -Dr. Geoffrey Hutchison Cornell University, Department of Chemistry and Chemical Biology Abruña Group http://abruna.chem.cornell.edu/ From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Sat Dec 3 21:05:00 2005 From: "Brian Salter-Duke b_duke^-^octa4.net.au" To: CCL Subject: CCL: question on molecular orbitals in CO and NO Message-Id: <-30171-051203190315-31284-JDgMRPu/hQmQq6ezYzLDnw*|*server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: Brian Salter-Duke Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2005 11:02:44 +1100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: Brian Salter-Duke [b_duke:-:octa4.net.au] On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 10:03:40AM -0500, Eric Scerri scerri_+_chem.ucla.edu wrote: > Sent to CCL by: Eric Scerri [scerri,chem.ucla.edu] > > Just a point about all this, > > There are now claims that relative phases have been observed, as in > the recent Itatani paper in Nature. > > What do listmembers think of the this? Does it constitute the > observation of orbitals in any sense? I have not read the Nature paper but recall the earlier discussion. It may be possible to observe the relative phases of the total wavefunction or perhaps even of the difference between the total wavefunctions of a molecule and its ion after removing an electron. At this point I think we just do not know. However, this is not the same as observation of an orbital which is a one-electron function used only as an part of an approximate description of the molecule in Hartree-Fock theory and DFT. Therefore I think we are certain that we do not observe orbitals. The change in the total wave function on removing an electron may look like an orbital, but it is'nt one. > Or would that require the observation of absolute phases? > > > > eric scerri > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------ > On Dec 2, 2005, at 10:43 AM, Sengen Sun sengensuna/yahoo.com wrote: > > > Sent to CCL by: Sengen Sun [sengensun() yahoo.com] > > Joslyn, > > > > Good suggestion. Let us put it off to avoid being > > heated up. I thought the winter and the blizard could > > help...... > > > > Actually, the heat could be avoided if we just simply > > say TRUE or FALSE to the quote by Hoffmann. > > > > I have been overwhelmed by some heat of agreements and > > disagreements in a bunch of private e-mails in the > > last 30 hours. A coule of them are too long without a > > clear point. > > > > If an experimental quantity A tells something or some > > actions about B, B then can be measured through A. In > > the other words, can a physical reality tell anything > > of no physical existence and no physical meaning? Is > > not this an interesting philosophical issue? > > > > But we, including many Doctors of Philosophy, should > > put off the discussion, ignore it, or discard it to > > avoid being burnt! Let us go back to our daily things > > that do not generate heat then. I have no problem to > > go back to some cool science and cool philisophy. > > > > Thanks to every one for contributions and attention. > > > > > > -:) > > > > Sengen > > ------------------------------------------------ > > > > > >> From: Joslyn Y Kravitz > >> Subject: CCL: question on molecular orbitals in CO > >> and NO > >> Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 15:57:37 -0500 (EST) > >> > >> > >> Didn't we just have this conversation in February? > >> Not that it wasn't interesting but I seem to recall > > that > >> it got rather heated and since we've recently had a > >> bunch of heated debates on the list maybe now is not > >> the time to do this again. > >> > >> > >> > >> __________________________________ > >> Start your day with Yahoo! - Make it your home page! > >> > >> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________ > > Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about. > > Just $16.99/mo. or less. > > dsl.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > -= This is automatically added to each message by the mailing > > script =- > > To recover the email address of the author of the message, please > > change> > > Search Messages: http://www.ccl.net/htdig (login: ccl, Password: > > search)> > > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- > > +-+-+ > > > > > > Dr. Eric Scerri > Department of Chemistry & Biochemistry, > Charles Young Drive, > Los Angeles, > CA 90095. > > 310 206 7443 > fax: 310 206 2061 > > UCLA faculty web page: http://www.chem.ucla.edu/dept/Faculty/scerri/ > > Editor of Foundations of Chemistry, > http://springerlink.metapress.com/(uw25gnu4jydrz5555tyeokjs)/app/home/ > journal.asp?referrer=parent&backto=linkingpublicationresults,1:103024,1> > > -- Brian Salter-Duke (Brian Duke) b_duke{:}octa4.net.au Post: 626 Melbourne Rd, Spotswood, VIC, 3015, Australia Phone 03-93992847. http://members.iinet.net.au/~linden1/brian/ Honorary Researcher, Chem., Melbourne Univ. & Med. Chem., Monash Univ. From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Sat Dec 3 21:40:00 2005 From: "Eduard Matito ematito\a/gmail.com" To: CCL Subject: CCL:G: DZ+(2d,p) basis set Message-Id: <-30172-051203201617-9404-pzT5OgVGz/sw5S9TD+XpSQ(0)server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: Eduard Matito Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2005 01:16:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: Eduard Matito [ematito^gmail.com] Hi people, Does anyone know where I could get DZ+(2d,p) basis set? (please notice the "2d") I check EMSL data (the so-called database of gaussian basis) but it seems to me this one it's not there, or maybe under another notation, but definitely I can't find it. Any help will be wellcome. Thanks a lot, Eduard. From owner-chemistry@ccl.net Sat Dec 3 22:15:00 2005 From: "Phil Hultin hultin:+:cc.umanitoba.ca" To: CCL Subject: CCL: What about an alternative CCL ? Message-Id: <-30173-051203181851-7401-8mhwW3QmsZAdOCMVRPU8hg(0)server.ccl.net> X-Original-From: "Phil Hultin" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 17:18:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sent to CCL by: "Phil Hultin" [hultin{=}cc.umanitoba.ca] The issues that Jim Kress wants to discuss are indeed interesting and worthy of discussion, BUT NOT ON CCL. Please, Jim, take this topic outside if you really want to talk about US (or indeed any other kind of) politics. First of all, the rest of us (i.e. the non-US residents) don't really care. We have enough trouble dealing with our own problems without worrying about yours. Second, I don't subscribe to CCL to read about politics. I want to learn about computational and theoretical chemistry. That doesn't mean I am not interested in politics or that I want to muzzle political discussion. This is simply not the appropriate forum. I may be wrong, but I suspect that most of CCL will agree with me on this. Let's talk about computational and theoretical chemistry, ok? Dr. Philip G. Hultin Associate Professor of Chemistry, University of Manitoba Winnipeg, MB R3T 2N2 hultin\a/cc.umanitoba.ca http://umanitoba.ca/chemistry/people/hultin -----Original Message----- > From: owner-chemistry\a/ccl.net [mailto:owner-chemistry\a/ccl.net] Sent: December 3, 2005 12:31 PM To: Hultin, Philip G. Subject: CCL: What about an alternative CCL ? Sent to CCL by: "Jim Kress" [ccl_nospam,kressworks.com] Ah yes, let's assign bad names (flames, trolls, and personal axe-grinding) to topics about which we disagree and then suppress their expression because they have been assigned thusly. It's a good technique. One that's been used throughout history to suppress ideas that people didn't like or couldn't disprove. In our current social environment it's even become a trendy way of dismissing those pesky people with whom we disagree. Unfortunately for those who wish to ignore it, there are basic issues regarding the funding of science in our country that must be resolved. That may seem unimportant (or trollish or flamish or axe grinding) now. However, in not too many years the Congress' Social Security slush fund (and it's other slush funds) is going to dry up and they won't have any funds to disperse to the scientific community (or many other places for that matter). The annual national deficit will reach into the trillion dollar range. The debt repayment will also reach into the trillion dollar range. The funding system will collapse or dry up. The economy may collapse as other nations demand repayment of the debit instruments they hold that are currently propping up our economy. The taxpayers will NOT tolerate the extreme increases in tax rates that will be required to maintain science (and other non-Constitutionally mandated) spending at current levels and massive cuts will be enacted. Spending on science will be among the first to fall because taxpayers will recognize and enforce the basic premise of our government, i.e. we are a Constitutionally Limited Republic where the power wielded by the government is explicitly assigned to it by the citizens (via the Constitution) and the citizens never assigned (via the Constitution) Congress the power to fund science. The taxpayers will become more and more aware that the government is forcibly taking their money to give to other people to do work they don't care about, think is useless, and was never authorized. They will exponentially escalate their resistance to this use of force, especially when they see their standard of living destroyed just so the government can give their money to other people. What are you all going to do then? That is the origination of my 'flames, trolls, and personal axe-grinding'. That is the reason I have brought this up. You ignore this at your own peril. Study history. Revolutions have started over less. Jim > -----Original Message----- > From: Shobe, David dshobe%sud-chemieinc.com > [mailto:owner-chemistry:ccl.net] > Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 6:17 PM > To: Kress, Jim > Subject: CCL: What about an alternative CCL ? > > Sent to CCL by: "Shobe, David" [dshobe^_^sud-chemieinc.com] > I'm afraid that flames, trolls, and personal axe-grinding are > inherent to this type of forum. :-( A second CCL will not help. > > Not that I mean to excuse such rude behavior. > > --David Shobe, Ph.D., M.L.S. > Süd-Chemie, Inc. > phone (502) 634-7409 > fax (502) 634-7724 > > Don't bother flaming me: I'm behind a firewall. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-chemistry__ccl.net [mailto:owner-chemistry__ccl.net] > Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 4:16 PM > To: Shobe, David > Subject: CCL: What about an alternative CCL ? > > Sent to CCL by: "Dillen Jan [jlmd],[sun.ac.za]" > I was just wondering whether it might not > be the time to establish an alternative to the current CCL > where people can ask questions about certain programs without > being brand-marked as freaks, where the response is not a > lecture about the pros and cons of capitalism, socialism, or > the spending of US taxpayer's money and, most importantly, > where people do not find the need to apologise for their bad > English to avoid a lashing. > > Just a thought. > > J. Dillen > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-chemistry\a/ccl.net [mailto:owner-chemistry\a/ccl.net] > Sent: 02 December 2005 17:22 > To: Dillen Jan > Subject: CCL: Gauzzian Compilation > > > Sent to CCL by: Mehdi Bounouar [mehdi.bounouar*ch.tum.de] Hum, > > Well, not replying is sufficient. Beside that this Gauzzian inc. > bashing is really annoying and does not help anyone ... > > > Rather disgusting behavior for a company that charges thousands of > > dollars for taxpayer funded work and then refuses to provide > > comprehensive support for those products it has developed > with money > > forcibly removed from other people. > > also not everyone on this list is an USA tax payer, write > your congressman for a Gauzzian-US version ;-) > > > and apologies to everyone especially to Roger (No answer > inside) and Jim if he takes my answer as a personal attack > (sorry bad english) > > Mehdihttp://www.ccl.net/cgi-bin/ccl/send_ccl_messagehttp://www .ccl.net/chemistry/sub_unsub.shtmlhttp://www.ccl.net/spammers.tx> tThis e-mail message may contain confidential and / or > privileged information. If you are not an addressee or > otherwise authorized to receive this message, you should not > use, copy, disclose or take any action based on this e-mail > or any information contained in the message. If you have > received this material in error, please advise the sender > immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message. > Thank you. > > > > -= This is automatically added to each message by the mailing > script =- To recover the email address of the author of the > message, please change the strange characters on the top line > to the : sign. You can also look up the X-Original-From: line > in the mail header.> > Search Messages: http://www.ccl.net/htdig (login: ccl, > Password: search)> > -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > -+-+-+-+-+http://www.ccl.net/cgi-bin/ccl/send_ccl_messagehttp://www.ccl.net/chemistry/sub_unsub.shtmlhttp://www.ccl.net/spammers.txt